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Post by DaHart85 on Apr 14, 2004 19:07:24 GMT -5
Wow it must have been a long time for you :-)
Immortals can not scout the zone, in fact they had about every power they had removed. Don't read that wrong, I couldn't care less either way. (Except I want the at command for lazy days!)
Doom has lizzies that eat gates. !magic rooms are in excess in my opinion, but that is purely a matter of opinion and Charis knows more about that part than I do.
Running DOOM in a group - used to be doable, not enough power mudders that I like are around and in the mood to take a chance at losing crap for me to bother puttin in the effort.
Running DOOM with a mage - From my understanding, Umi can still do it without it being too ungodly difficult, but you did slow him down. (Sidenote: Taking advantage of being able to run DOOM in 10 minutes with a mage is pretty lame in my opinion)
Running DOOM with Rangers/Cleric (or 2) - This was the most fun I EVER had on the mud. Me and the rest of SWANK in DOOM for 4ish hours clearing the entire zone. There were like 3 or 4 rangers and I was clericing. Four hours sounded like a fair amount of time to me for getting the items that we did. The mud also was 100x less stable so we could do 2-3 DOOM runs a week. I have never had more fun on the mud than I did running DOOM with rangers/cleric because we did a lot of joking around and talking along with actually killing poop.
I think DOOM should be run in a group or with rangers/cleric if you are looking to have a good time. I think the lame people who use mages and fly through DOOM are just that, completely lame. I think red Gateways should be able to check if a mage has at least say 3 items of gear on before allowing a character to enter. Stupid idea, but oh well. I think there are better ways to block mages than !magic rooms because those rooms also negate a cleric or other spell-casting class from entertaining the idea of entering DOOM.
Charis has done A LOT to this zone on her own time, so it is not my place to complain, but I am attempting to offer ideas even though, most likely, I won't be heading in there anytime soon, if ever. The zone does need fixing and Charis has done a lot of needed changes, but without the playerbase that used to be present, I don't see it getting attacked all too often, since there are not like 6 uber-chars on that plan on being on for 4 hours that actually like each other. Without that, there will most likely not be an effective group. Charis can make it group-runnable, but without a group willing to run it, the effort she would have to take seems meaningless to me.
My $0.02
-Dave
EDIT: If I remember correctly, Charis said there isn't an assembly quest in DOOM, but from my understanding of talking to the old farts (and perhaps Haldane can confirm this), there was a DOOM assembly quest originally coded into DOOM, but it never worked. I don't know that for a fact, just passing on what I presume from bits and pieces of information. :-)
As always, I can help somewhat when needed, but I am neither a power player nor have I ever built very complex zones such as DOOM, I've only built two basic crappy ones, so it is probably simpler for her to do it on her own. :-)
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umi
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Post by umi on Apr 14, 2004 22:54:40 GMT -5
Now let me get this straight. You're calling running through doom with a mage lame, yet patting yourself on the back for being able to summon and heal pet-spamming rangers wearing 40k worth of eq? It's not an exploit or anything, it's just suiciding until you get where you want to go to make another gate. Before mages starting running thru DOOM it was run by a cleric who was most likely not at the keyboard at the time (don't tell me they weren't botting half the time, cause they were) and 2 or 3 rangers who used pets. The cleric stopped the zone from repopping while the rangers killed things with pets and called the cleric to summon them if they happened to accidently get hit. How is pet spamming things and getting summoned to safety any less lame that a mage walking past mobs and making new gates? There's no difference in it except that it takes 1 person 10 minutes to do something that takes 3 people 4 hours to do. That's called a waste of 3 hours and 50 minutes. The reason mages started being used is because you and your friends could no longer run the key on crash and then stash it until you can get your cleric bot and gimp rangers to spam the hell out of the place. Then after people ran DOOM, they would re-run the key when the zone reset and stash that one too. Unlimited keys started dropping which meant you could no longer lock people out of the zone. Maybe that's what you're so bitter about? There are plenty of lame ways to do things, but killing things with pets is just as lame as any of the rest.
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Post by RNBL Charis on Apr 14, 2004 23:08:32 GMT -5
Ummm, ok, other than taking a jaunt down your own Memory Lane and a few statements of the blatantly obvious, DaHart, I'm still trying to figure out if there was some sort of constructive angle to your post... Your last paragraph states that you're attempting to offer ideas, but I really didn't see anything substantial. Not anything that hadn't already been mentioned ad nauseum, that is. For the 1st 80% of your post, with regards to running the zone with naked mages, rangers and groups (or lack thereof), I'm simply going to refer you to the 2nd post I made to this forum (it's the 3rd post, overall). Namely, blurbs 2b and 2c. Please go re-read it. As for 'better ways to block mages', I've always had an open inbox for suggestions and you're welcome to email me yours on this matter. Preferably a suggestion that doesn't require me to reconfigure every mob in the zone for the sake of one over-abused class that managed to spoil it for the other magic-using kiddies. If anyone really cares, I've never added any !magic rooms to the zone. It's the same number that's been there since I received the zone and there really aren't THAT many, maybe less than a dozen out of a few HUNDRED rooms. Potential alternatives to the !magic flags will be evaluated in time in an effort to discourage death squads. But with the game suffering more downtime in the past 6 months than in the past 6 years, let's just say that I haven't exactly been inspired to work on the zone or research things, especially when I can't even get access to a beta port for any updates I MIGHT make and need testing for. I'm not sure how the playerbase not being as it was is somehow a result of DOOM's difficulty or my administration of the zone. My 'fixing' the zone isn't going to bring players back, nor revive what few power-mudders we may still have and, somehow, I don't think one extra-tough zone on the mud is what's making people not want to login anymore. RE: your edit: I've already talked to Chad offline about DOOM on a handful of occasions, actually. I'll simply comment with the following: an assembly quest was supposed to be coded into DOOM, it never quite made it and is a wonderful example of how rampant rumors are accepted as truth with no tangible proof... No one ever found it, oh, ODD, that a belt had NEVER ACTUALLY been constructed after 3+ years? Yes, dealing with DOOM as a one-person project from the code updating is the best course of action, imho, given the extreme complexity of the zone. "Too many cooks spoil the soup" also comes to mind. Umi has managed to give me plenty of excellent input in the past from a DOOM-runner's perspective for the changes I've made. Everyone else is always welcome to do so, as well. I have plenty of ideas on my plate that need to be implemented, it's simply a matter of converting them into a decent format but they're large changes and not quick in arrival. Please keep any flames to email or direct private messages, I'd really much prefer if this board to not get clogged with hodgepodge.
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Tam
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Post by Tam on Apr 14, 2004 23:43:40 GMT -5
No one ever found it, oh, ODD, that a belt had NEVER ACTUALLY been constructed after 3+ years? Actually, it's not all that funky of an idea. With the proper load setups you could feasibly have something pretty much never load. To add even more confusion/creativity, you have the venue of custom code/procs. To my knowledge, in 11 years, only 2 hand phasers were actually acquired by a citizen (then a player). Finding something like that once in a long while is almost as entertaining as picking up something cool in an assembly quest. It's just something that realistically may not ever happen again. -Tam
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umi
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Post by umi on Apr 15, 2004 6:35:08 GMT -5
I forgot to mention. No, I can not get to the top of the zone anymore in 10 minutes. In fact, I can only reach the top on very, very rare occasions when certain conditions are met. It's possible to run around some portions of the zone, but right now Charis is the only one who knows where the usual keys load. The location of the keys will probably take a group to find.
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Post by Tarbal on Apr 15, 2004 9:59:54 GMT -5
okay...so when is this legendary group gonna make a quest into this forbidden zone...i would love to be involved...i have ran around in there aimlessly as a naked mage before...but i have yet to go on an organized run into the zonewould really like to learn a little something
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Post by Arizhel on Apr 15, 2004 17:02:51 GMT -5
I forgot to mention. No, I can not get to the top of the zone anymore in 10 minutes. In fact, I can only reach the top on very, very rare occasions when certain conditions are met. I personally would hazard a guess that this is exactly what she's after. I think it's a pretty good idea myself. Getting to the top of DOOM shouldn't be a 'Oh, been there, done that' type of thing, considering what all loads up there.
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Post by RNBL Charis on Apr 18, 2004 9:17:04 GMT -5
I personally would hazard a guess that this is exactly what she's after. Yep, pretty much! ;D I've still got a long way to go, though. Now, if only more people could come to that simple realization, instead of expecting to barrel through the zone at Mach 4 and have every piece of equipment load...
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Saviour
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The only thing I ever ask of you, gotta promise not to stop when I say when...
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Post by Saviour on Apr 18, 2004 15:01:07 GMT -5
Doom is a bad ass joint. Anyone who's spent a little time already knows this. I've been in there on a couple occassions, but not enough to have any real idea of the layout or any of it's 'mysteries'. Call it lazyness, wimpiness, or a complete lack of willingness to commit the time, or loss of eq. I spent 6+ hours in there one Sunday morning with Corb and friends attempting to get back a stack of eq at Algodon's feet. Since then I haven't had the gumption to walk back in there. I too would like to learn/run DOOM...I could care less about the eq;most of it is not valuable/useful enough to offset the ridiculous rent charges, but that's just my opinion. That being said, I am up for the challenge. Anymore with school, family life, work, etc. I don't have the time to commit endless,mindless hours day in and day out. I'm more of a semi-retired weekend warrior. BUT...given the right group of people, I am more than willing to commit to a time that we can all meet and give it a whirl. When the mud finally does get back up (Not a knock to anyone...I know sometimes these things take time) anyone with an intelligent group of people, or a prospective group of people willing to give it a shot, should feel free to drop me a line. Take care, and let's hope we all meet at port 4000 soon
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Post by Fensalk on Dec 24, 2004 12:39:57 GMT -5
My opinion is pretty controversial of course and will never happen but I think forcing morts to explore is vastly overrated. There have been lots of extremely popular and fun RPGs/puzzle games over the years for video games, etc. Zelda, Mario, Diablo 2, etc. They ALL have had detailed guides published to explain how to go about accomplishing everything. But that has never killed the enthusiasm for such games.
I seriously think its completely the reverse. If things are -too- hard to figure out, it kills interest.
I think I've held this stance for like 8 years, and I've repeatedly said this is the #1 thing that drives people away. Think like a newbie. You have JediMUD, which is very mysterious but you can't figure anything about it. And then competing for their attention is Diablo 2, which has fansites on the web and guide he can buy in stores that details everything and get his juices flowing about what can he accomplish. Its an easy choice, really. The newbie will log out of jedi and chase the carrot. But for some reason, I've never been able to get this point across.
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Antessima
Junior Member
Lord of Ridicule
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Post by Antessima on Dec 28, 2004 14:46:03 GMT -5
I don't necessarily have any big new ideas for DOOM, having never run it, but that sort of drawback has never prevented philosophers from giving their opinion, and it won't stop me either What I would suggest, though, when considering how to change the zone, is to spend some time researching the classes we have and determine what your ideal DOOM group would be. Then, make whatever changes you feel necessary to narrow down the conquerability of the zone towards what you feel such a group could accomplish, and use the test port with some trusted friends now and then to see if such a group could reach the top of the zone (or however far the zone will allow) in no less then a couple hours and no more than 6 hours. Just a thought. As far as my view of the zone as a whole, I think having an ultimate zone in the game is a good thing for the mud. As I mentioned a few times in the 'Open Letter' thread on the general board, my view for game expansion and improvement is not changing existing mobs/zones because you think they're too easy for the really good players to conquer, but to create new zones that are increasingly difficult and challenging. Is DOOM over the top in this regard? Maybe. All I've heard so far is second-hand info from other players who have tried to run it, and it most certainly does seem daunting. But I will refrain from passing judgement on a zone I've not yet run myself. I hope that more is done to increase the zone's popularity, though it would be a shame in my view to lower its difficulty to do so. I think that the suggestions Haldane made in his first post about changing eq and parts of the zone regularly would have an astounding effect on the appeal of the zone. Knowing that there's a new ring in the game that might make my causes obsolete would certainly infuriate the greedy, bloodthirsty monster in me (if I even had causes, that is). Just some thoughts. Maybe after I've built a few zones myself, I can offer something of greater value. - Me
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farbekrieg
Junior Member
"CCChha cha cha changes, time to change the oil... dont wanna be an oily man.
Posts: 88
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Post by farbekrieg on Dec 29, 2004 13:32:23 GMT -5
Jedi too hard? Perhaps something has changed recently that Im not aware of that has caused such changes, for people without patience such as myself I have been able to rely on friends aquientences and people who find it interesting as hell to stand in front a mob for minutes on end in the hopes of that mob speaking to do assembly quests.
Grim, Shifty, Axl were all sources of info when I was too lazy to look myself and through such sources anything I myself could not be bother to figure out was gained.
Secondly their should be no ideal group, sadly their are a few key classes that are pretty much required to run doom, which is sad. That said given a good knowledge of doom and a few mages you can get to the top of doom in a few hours. (assuming its possible that uptime)
That said Id like to point out one does not simply decide hey Im gonna run doom.
First their is the issue of the key, the key is not static and is often changing the manner in which it loads from waking a sleeping minotaur to hunting the wounded with the new fangled drop on ground technique, and probably changed again in the future.
Secondly the 'good' items in doom do not reset, if your not the first person or 'group' to run it yer simply SOL.
Third it is not always possible to access the top of doom due to the gate system (may have been corrected, but I have not tried in at least a few days).
Fourth extensive knowledge of doom and its portals is limited to a very select group of people, if you do not have such a person in your group you expose yourself to the tedium of having to clear EVERY death blossum minotaur and lizardman, as well as the dts (moving or otherwise) that infest doom.
Fifth Keys decay and doors reset and close, making wipes almost as good a dt.
Sixth In pick up groups traveling through doom you will be screwed just the way things are, either from ninja looters, or sheer greed
Last on the off chance you get a group together, have the key and the portals are set in such a way to reach the top, most assuredly almost nothing will load. well not true SRM and stilts likely did but other then that.
The risk and time given and the vague possibly of reward (assuming you are the first group to run it) is such a turn off to some that you will have a time trying to get the peeps together with 3 or so hours to kill.
But hey Ive run doom and that probably counts against me.
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Kierk
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Post by Kierk on Mar 10, 2005 4:37:05 GMT -5
I have been inside and out of doom over the last few months and it is very runnable by those brave enough and those with a goddamn brain.
When I used to run with Arizhel and Ego, we found all sorts of weird things, from unlockable doors to !exit rooms that seemed to be out of place. To us, this was just part of the zone's character. So to fix these things would definitely take away from the zone.
I have come up with a way of running the zone with a group...yes...a group. It takes about 1 hour to prep (get the key, set yourself up, explore and make sure gates are there). Then another to prep the group (cause this zone isn't one you just hack and slash), and about 5-8 hours to just do it.
In my experience, doom is treacherous, so only people willing and able to sacrifice "precious eq" should run it, so try it.
On the constructive side, there are definitely rooms in the zone that are still sticky and I can certainly point them out. also, I'm not exactly sure what the original zone called for, so I can't exactly be too helpful, but I would agree to the fact that if there were more hints on certain mobs/rooms in certain areas about what the f*** was going on in the zone, it would definitely be a lot more player-friendly to the first time explorers. I can give specifics off this board for the writer. If this suggestion completely defeats the purpose of the zone, then I would suggest a different angle for the zone such as friendly mobs (lizzies that have been mutated, but retain their conscience or something) that assist mudders. there are a million ways to go with this zone to make it more user-friendly besides "try it if you want to lose your eq".
I've been away so long that I cant imagine someone is even looking at this board, but possibly, maybe...
Always around...(if you know the right people that can get in contact with me)... ~~Kierk
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umi
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Post by umi on Mar 10, 2005 7:57:41 GMT -5
I think I know what rooms you're talking about and they aren't sticky They went in with the first DOOM changes (the one that made minotaurs aggro) and weren't part of the massive sticky.
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Kierk
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Post by Kierk on Mar 10, 2005 16:55:31 GMT -5
bummer, cause the room I'm thinking about is probably the worst spot for mobs that wont let you pass. I guess it adds a bit of challenge because you have to clear out the 15 mobs that occupy the 3 rooms, one being !magic. Oh well.
~~Kierk
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Post by Galeron on Apr 3, 2005 16:25:04 GMT -5
Definitely looks like some things should be looked at in there to make sure its all kosher.
-gal
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Post by RNBL Charis on Apr 3, 2005 20:53:44 GMT -5
As I've already mentioned to those who've asked:
Unless someone has been appointed to maintain the zone without my knowledge, DOOM hasn't changed lately. (and I'd really hope someone of authority would've had the courtesy to inform me of such for brain-dump purposes).
The only thing that's changed is that people are running the zone again. Things tend to get noticed when people actually run a zone.
RL has taken priority for me over the past 6-12 months, I've had a lot of changes to deal with but now that things have settled a bit, I can probably blow the dust off of my maps and files and get back to work. I've already received a report about the minotaurs, so I don't need repeats on them, please.
PLEASE DO NOT MUDMAIL ME!
I cannot save and file mudmail for future use. It offers no method of tracking trends or archiving suggestions.
If you have any viable info to communicate, please utilize regular email. My charis@jedimud account still works, just make sure to put 'DOOM' somewhere in the subject line so I know it's not spam ;D
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Weeds
New Member
I plan on living forever. So far, so good.
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Post by Weeds on Apr 14, 2005 0:11:32 GMT -5
To anybody who has taken statistics, DOOM is a statistical nightmare. First you look at your goal, which is get to the top and get whatever is on the goat. Then you have to go through all the probabilities of getting to the top, the chances that the gates will match, the mobs who loads the key is there, the key is loaded, then theres always that last probability that Algodon is actually loaded! I mean, after running it, I think yes, it is a lot of fun when all the probabilities i just went through come out positive and you get booty (hasnt happened to me since the big changes awhile back). But when you stack probabilities like that you can only say that actually getting to the top and having something loaded is RARE! so rare that its really silly to actually try to get. Why spend 7-9 hours, as Kierk just said, to actually get to the top to have nothing loaded? b/c its good gold? who needs gold! b/c its good experience? you're dead more than you're actually alive! b/c its fun? hell no. I think if we're stacking the probabilities on actually making it to the top, then there should actually be something there. Its so rare that someone makes it there already, why not?!
Weeds
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Post by Tarbal on Apr 14, 2005 6:06:18 GMT -5
after all, DOOM is supposed to be a "perpetual quest zone" and pretty much every quest i have seen ran DOES have a prize at the end of it. and if it is a quest that takes 7-9 hours to run you can be guarnteed that you are going to get a PIMP prize. so yeah, i agree, you win the quest *got to the top* and you should get a prize...just my opinion
mike
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Post by Aneyou on Apr 25, 2006 16:03:13 GMT -5
Wow so no one has posted here since 2005. That is kind of sad. Ever since these posts, doom has undergone one humungous change and it is not a secret anymore that the entire zone is now !gate. That's right, mages cannot gate in there anymore. At first I didn't like this because it made it seem impossible, but on the contrary, it has just made me alot more versatile in my techniques. I would like to know who is in charge of DOOM currently and what, if anything, is being done in there. And just to add a little fire to this thread to reignite it, here's a situation: You have a room with only one exit and there are two lizardmen in this room that block you from getting back out of that only exit. There are 4 minotaurs in the room as well, and nothing can leave because the lizards are blocking and that is the reason the room is so packed. The room is !magic, so you cannot use wod or any mage spells on them, and there is another mob in the room that has a piece of eq on them. Also, there are a couple nymphs taht can remove all your spells, and a few oozes that are nothing important most of the time. How do you handle this situation to get the eq you want? (The eq'd mob purges pets so its not that simple ) just as an explanation, this room would drop a -200 ac sanc'd char around 200 hp if they got hit when they walked in on the first round. Go for it P.S. Also waiting for a reply on who's in charge atm.
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antrus
Junior Member
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Post by antrus on Apr 26, 2006 16:08:58 GMT -5
And just to add a little fire to this thread to reignite it, here's a situation: You have a room with only one exit and there are two lizardmen in this room that block you from getting back out of that only exit. There are 4 minotaurs in the room as well, and nothing can leave because the lizards are blocking and that is the reason the room is so packed. The room is !magic, so you cannot use wod or any mage spells on them, and there is another mob in the room that has a piece of eq on them. Also, there are a couple nymphs taht can remove all your spells, and a few oozes that are nothing important most of the time. How do you handle this situation to get the eq you want? (The eq'd mob purges pets so its not that simple ) just as an explanation, this room would drop a -200 ac sanc'd char around 200 hp if they got hit when they walked in on the first round. Go for it P.S. Also waiting for a reply on who's in charge atm. Tht would room would be pretty simple really with a large enough group. Grab a cleric or two with decent regen, a couple ninjas to hit through resist, and a couple high hp high ac warriors. Have warriors go on, rescues 3x so that each one has 3 hitters on them, have the ninjas assist and disarm, clerics summon out when they get low on hp. OR if that is too risky for you, just go with the same tricks you can use on Goat and Algodon, and backstab/summon the hell out of the mobs. Easily done if you've got a brain to think about it with
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Post by Aneyou on Apr 26, 2006 16:13:40 GMT -5
Well first off, you aren't allowed to answer this question cause you and I actually DID this just the two of us. That's not the way we did it. but it could work. THe problem would be that minos hit hard enough to need heals regularly, and as soon as you summoned one warrior out, the mob would switch so someone would end up dying, especially if you need to summon them all out. THe backstab thing could work, but thats just cheap. Might as well just take a group in like you said and have 10 paladins laying hands . THat could work too lol....come on, someone else take a stab at this.
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Post by pixie on Aug 1, 2006 23:27:39 GMT -5
Well first off, you aren't allowed to answer this question cause you and I actually DID this just the two of us. That's not the way we did it. but it could work. THe problem would be that minos hit hard enough to need heals regularly, and as soon as you summoned one warrior out, the mob would switch so someone would end up dying, especially if you need to summon them all out. THe backstab thing could work, but thats just cheap. Might as well just take a group in like you said and have 10 paladins laying hands . THat could work too lol....come on, someone else take a stab at this. Personally I would use the good old backstab/summon on the 2 lizardmen, allowing the mobs to leave. Once the mobs could leave, bring in the wodders and wait outside.
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Post by gambler on Aug 3, 2006 6:14:34 GMT -5
In regards to the aforementioned room. There are DOZENS of ways to take out that room!! I'd prefer some resonated tanking -200ac jedi, a ninja, and a Paladin with lay hands with a cleric to take care of the pally outside the room. Or you could petspam (then summon ranger) enough of the mobs to go in with a couple ninjas.
Anyhow on doom: Who the hell is workin' on this zone!!! I'd like to take a crack at fixing this zone. As it stands right now (and for the past 2 years), it's not a quest zone, its a place I take my mages and (naked) rangers to get wasted over and over. Its rare that the thing is even runnable and if a zone is not runnable in a given uptime and its not resettable (guessing), then why would anyone ever bother to RISK all that they have for a <1% chance at something mildly better?
Gambler
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Post by pixie on Aug 4, 2006 12:46:50 GMT -5
I am a big fan of this articular DOOM fix: 1) all DOOM eq remains as a tribute to an almost-a-good-idea zone. 2) all !DOOM eq reverts to PRE-DOOM stats. 3) REMOVE DOOM.
Many problems solved.
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