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Post by RNBL Charis on Jan 26, 2004 16:39:02 GMT -5
Greetings, everyone!
I figured that I'd put a new topic up here for the discussion of the marvelously frustrating zone that I currently administer. I've done the 'board thang' on the mud and, over time, those posts tend to get wiped when the board gets too big. I'm hoping it'll get a bit more reception here since clean-up efforts are less common on a discussion forum.
My primary goal with this introductory post/topic is to ask for everyone's input, observations and constructive comments for DOOM. Comments that I truly hope don't erupt into a massive flame war or excessive finger-pointing.
During the course of my DOOM duties, for all of the requests I've posted, I've received a very small handful of emails with suggestions, ideas and overall developmental thoughts. Of course, just like any other game admin (or former admin, in my case), I do receive some ideas that border on the utterly ridiculous, but will still try to morph such a suggestion into something that could be quasi-useful or beneficial to the zone.
For subsequent replies that might be made to this post, I humbly ask the following of the poster:
- Please keep game balance in mind. BAD: +6dam +6 hr, minlevel 1, no rest thingamabobber. GOOD: +hp-regen boots for warriors and thieves. If you want to include a name for whatever you're submitting, go for it, but I won't guarantee that it'll be used. For those who might be curious, the list of current DOOM eq falls into the following slots: 3 types of neck eq, 3 for on-body, 2 for feet, 2 types of handwear, 2 different rings, 1 about-body, 1 holdable, 1 shield, 1 set of armwear, 1 piece of headwear, 1 waist and 1 for legs. Obviously, we probably don't need more neck eq in DOOM, but it could probably be tweaked to better suit some other eq slot.
- Understand the general functionality and code limitations of the game. Please don't request brand new mob procs that don't exist, I'm trying to refrain from asking the coder to write more when there are far more pressing issues at hand. Plus, we've got a huge list of them somewhere, so I'd probably use whichever one fit the idea best. Also realize that all objects only have space for 2 modifiers (ex: damage, hitroll, regen, etc.). Yes, I've actually had people ask for items with 3 or 4...
- If you notice something awry in the zone, PLEASE LET ME KNOW! Don't sit there and gripe about it on gossip. While this might make you feel better, it will not fix the possible problem at hand. Please note that I said 'let ME know'... not 'let a CIMP know', not 'let a DEMI+ know'... ME! charis@jedimud is a fully functional address, and any visible imm or admin you may find online is not your personal carrier pigeon. Things get lost in translation that way. Also, try to be as specific as possible: telling me that some lizardmen in a featureless hallway has a loading problem tends to border on the vague side. I have fully admit that I don't know how to run the zone from a mortal perspective, but since I spend most of my time with my nose buried in the zone's files, I do have a decent grasp as to how the zone works.
Please believe me when I say that significant changes to the zone do not come easily and require hefty amounts of research. I refuse to be willy-nilly with any changes going into the zone. Once upon a time, I sacrificed a small tree to print out the associated files for DOOM just to have them handy and put things in perspective. If you don't believe me, ask Ciara, she's seen the stack of paper, too. =)
Feel free to contact me with any questions... or just post them here!
Thanks! -Charis
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Post by sabbath on Jan 28, 2004 11:06:44 GMT -5
Do you currently have any plans for the sticky/!magic rooms? Suggestions: I'd like to see the zone ran by groups, instead of rangers or mages, or whatever. Have you considered (if it's currently doable) !gate or !pet rooms? -Sabbath who enjoys starting discussion, and possibly getting flamed
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Post by RNBL Charis on Jan 28, 2004 11:56:25 GMT -5
Umm, ok, you obviously haven't run the zone lately (namely, in the past 6 months), otherwise you wouldn't be asking the questions that you're asking... I'm going to try to remain calm and breeeeeeeeeathe...
1. Sticky rooms - I removed those room flags a long time ago. If I missed one, let me know. I'm not guaranteeing that they won't be put back at some future point in a more selective method in comparison to how they were put in. Plus, adding a room proc is a lot easier than tweaking mobs with the block_dir proc (see: Mercury, Mars, et al).
2a. Rangers- You really haven't run the zone in a while, have you? Please go try to run DOOM with a ranger and report back with your findings. Seriously. Go. Now.
2b. Mages/!magic rooms - The naked-mage clensing effort has been underway for quite some time, as well. Again, this leads back to my repeated comments about you obviously not having run the zone lately. And why would I remove the !magic rooms? Maybe because they're detrimental to spellcasters? Please excuse me if I don't make it 100% convenient, in every room, for clerics to heal everybody, bards to slow, rangers to fumble, and other spellcasters to, well, cast spells... That's part of what makes the zone as difficult as it is. If the !magic rooms did 'go away', it would only be because I've replaced them with something just as detrimental, non-standard and overall evil =)
2c. Groups - I posted a bit of a rant on a mud-board last month, and it's scrolled off since then. It can be basically summed up as this: DOOM is perfectly runnable with a group. Gather up a pack of addicts and go run it. What classes you choose to include, and the amount of people you take into DOOM is up to you. No one likes running the zone because *gasp* they run the risk of dying, or dying in a place where eq recovery is difficult. This all boils down to the simple fact that people are absolute basket-cases with regards to losing eq or exp. This has nothing to do with me or the zone itself, but everything to do with people wanting uber-eq handed to them on a gleaming platter, which I simply refuse to do.
DOOM is not supposed to be a normal, cookie-cutter zone that can be wiped clean in 30 minutes. I've run in a DOOM group before, contrary to popular belief, and I will fully admit that it's tough as hell. And it took a long time to do it...
The rewards you reap will be reflective of the effort that you put forth.
-Charis, who could've put new stuff into DOOM ages ago but no one would've noticed because they're too scared or lazy to run the zone.
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Post by sabbath on Jan 28, 2004 14:39:19 GMT -5
Umm, ok, you obviously haven't run the zone lately (namely, in the past 6 months), otherwise you wouldn't be asking the questions that you're asking... I'm going to try to remain calm and breeeeeeeeeathe... You are correct that I haven't been in DOOM for a while, since I have been busy w/ RL stuff (see Hate's title for more information). I was just going off my impressions from the last time I was in there. 1. Sticky rooms - I removed those room flags a long time ago. If I missed one, let me know. I'm not guaranteeing that they won't be put back at some future point in a more selective method in comparison to how they were put in. Plus, adding a room proc is a lot easier than tweaking mobs with the block_dir proc (see: Mercury, Mars, et al). Again, I admit that it has been a while, and if you've removed those rooms, that's great. 2a. Rangers- You really haven't run the zone in a while, have you? Please go try to run DOOM with a ranger and report back with your findings. Seriously. Go. Now. I was simply thinking by this point that it may be a good idea to put in something like !pet rooms instead of !magic in some places, as I'm thinking of a group of mixed classes going into the zone. 2b. Mages/!magic rooms - The naked-mage clensing effort has been underway for quite some time, as well. Again, this leads back to my repeated comments about you obviously not having run the zone lately. And why would I remove the !magic rooms? Maybe because they're detrimental to spellcasters? Please excuse me if I don't make it 100% convenient, in every room, for clerics to heal everybody, bards to slow, rangers to fumble, and other spellcasters to, well, cast spells... That's part of what makes the zone as difficult as it is. If the !magic rooms did 'go away', it would only be because I've replaced them with something just as detrimental, non-standard and overall evil =) I'm not trying to say that all of the !magic rooms have to go, but having some places where clerics can help the group, etc. would be a good thing IMHO. 2c. Groups - I posted a bit of a rant on a mud-board last month, and it's scrolled off since then. It can be basically summed up as this: DOOM is perfectly runnable with a group. Gather up a pack of addicts and go run it. What classes you choose to include, and the amount of people you take into DOOM is up to you. No one likes running the zone because *gasp* they run the risk of dying, or dying in a place where eq recovery is difficult. This all boils down to the simple fact that people are absolute basket-cases with regards to losing eq or exp. This has nothing to do with me or the zone itself, but everything to do with people wanting uber-eq handed to them on a gleaming platter, which I simply refuse to do. I am not asking you to hand down the eq for nothing. On the contrary, I enjoy the challenge of doom, and fully intend to go and try it sometime in the near future, again. I simply haven't had the time lately to try the zone out with the new changes. DOOM is not supposed to be a normal, cookie-cutter zone that can be wiped clean in 30 minutes. I've run in a DOOM group before, contrary to popular belief, and I will fully admit that it's tough as hell. And it took a long time to do it... I agree that DOOM should be difficult. It holds some things that are worth the effort. I just however, was trying to make some suggestions to someone. The next time I want to voice an opinion, I guess I'll keep my %$&@ mouth shut. Some of us who mort occasionally don't have the time between trying to be with, and support a family, to spend as much time playing a game as we'd like. All I was trying to do is respond to your post in what I thought was a constructive way, so that when I do have the time to run the zone, it is not a waiste. -Sabbath who is quite proud of not having that much time to spend in a GAME.
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Post by pixie on Jan 28, 2004 20:46:30 GMT -5
I am with sabbath on the it has been a while since, so forgive me if my post too is irrevalent at the time, but here goes.
Ran parliment of owls recently and noticed some cery cool procs in there, like spells bouncing off, and mobs taking no damage from physical attacks, I personally would like to see more of these types of procs introduced semi randomly in the area in leiu of the standard !magic room. also I agree that making some kind of !gate proc for rooms, and/or mobs who can 'eat' gates would be cool, as i think a goodly part of the reason for all the !magic is the frakin' inner gateway spell. (2nd worst skill in game, ask tam for 1st) I could be wrong! I do not know your motivations! !pet the entire area would be nice too, since I think it is supposed to be a group quest area.
Again! I admit i have not run DOOM in over 6 months!
-Pix
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Post by Silverking on Jan 31, 2004 0:03:57 GMT -5
Hrm, idea... inner gateway only useable for one transport?
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Post by RNBL Charis on Jan 31, 2004 7:40:15 GMT -5
Hrm, idea... inner gateway only useable for one transport? Are you referring to the red gateways that are in the zone? Or the functionality of the actual inner gateway spell itself?
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Post by Silverking on Jan 31, 2004 8:14:36 GMT -5
The inner gateway spell...
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Post by RNBL Charis on Jan 31, 2004 9:45:17 GMT -5
The inner gateway spell... No, the standard inner gateway is usable many times in typical gameplay by the caster and whoever is following them (players only) before the spell expires and the gates fade. But that's probably a discussion for another board ;-)
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Post by engelburg on Feb 4, 2004 3:05:59 GMT -5
i like doom the way it is, but that is just me. i am not to fond of doom eq though the rent cost is the only thing i don't like (tight wad) but like has been said doom eq isn't something that just anyone should be able to get! i have never owned doom eq and probly never will, but none the less i think it is cool that it is group oriented, and i think there should be a couple more zones like it. if i were creative i would do it but i suck at creative stuff like that ;D i have ran doom in a group a couple times and accidently wondered in there a few times, (complete brain fart) lost most of my eq but luckly i had friends that helped get most of it back. anyway like i said doom is fine the way it is, maybe make it a lil tuffer but that is just my opinion! hasta engelburg
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Griffon
Junior Member
If you make funny faces long enough, this is what happens...
Posts: 81
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Post by Griffon on Feb 4, 2004 17:49:16 GMT -5
Sadly, I have yet to find DOOM, but with all of this hype, I am interested in running it... I know it's asking a lot, but can someone give me the vauge heading of this fabled zone?
-Nic
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Post by RNBL Charis on Feb 5, 2004 6:18:29 GMT -5
There's a rules/guidelines board in one of the higher brackets. Among other things, two of the rules on that board were listed as the following:
No posting of quest clues, hints, components, or other spoilers
No posting of maps
Please go ask someone while you're ON the mud, I'm sure they'll be happy to send you to your doom...
Pun intended ;-)
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Post by Arizhel on Feb 5, 2004 7:27:28 GMT -5
No, the standard inner gateway is usable many times in typical gameplay by the caster and whoever is following them (players only) before the spell expires and the gates fade. Pets can use the gates. Pets that are following the caster, that is. Not pets that are following players that are following the caster.
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Post by Arizhel on Feb 13, 2004 20:06:29 GMT -5
has the Minos discussion been closed? i can't seem to post to that thread. apologies for the cross-post, charis. thanks Fixed the Minos thread. Someone apparently mistakenly locked the topic. Should be all good now.
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Post by Haldane on Feb 29, 2004 8:12:11 GMT -5
Fah, asking for Charis to remove the !magic rooms from the zone is like asking her to change all those annoying neutral alignments on the mobs. You'd just ruin the most important feature of the zone... the addmittedly smallish element of danger. DOOM was written to kill people, using the most obnoxious tricks at the disposal of an experienced world builder at the time that _didn't_ involve new code. Sure it has some nice objects in it to provide the incentive for brave people to explore it, but the whole idea of the zone is that it will, by its nature, try its little heart out to kill you dead if you're an idiot. Of course with the really impressive stability Jedi enjoys these days the chances of losing a huge pile of equipment in a crash are rather small, but at the very least DOOM should be a challenge to retrive your gear from. The best thing that can be done to "maintain" DOOM is recognize that it wasn't meant to be maintained. It was designed to be changed, modified and expanded regularly. That's why it's the highest numbered zone in the game, or was when it was written, at least. DOOM is modular. It's made from small, 30-40 room modules that can be easy swapped out for new chunks. They can be easily changed out because DOOM uses those gateways to travel from piece to piece. If you want to change the zone, simply write a new chunck and change where one of the gates takes players for a while, or add a new one. It'd probably be 500 rooms by now if the original spirit of the idea was followed over the past several years. DOOM is meant to change. In fact, the idea behind each of the original objects in the zone was to let a copy or two of them enter the game, then make a new one and replace it. No one should have a full set of "DOOM eq" because it's meant to be like... high level artifacts in a campaign world. That's one of the biggest problems with Jedi. There could be 50,000 copies of the legendary sword Excalibur running around out there. Add another assembly quest to the zone. That should get things moving. People like assembly quests. They also reward people for persistence rather than simple dumb luck. As for the sticky rooms... those weren't in there originally, so I'm not sure when they went in. I've never run the zone myself, so it's tough to keep track of the minutia. Did someone finally code a flag for the zone to keep immortals from using their powers to scout it? Not that I'm pointing any fingers! **Here's a freebie. Add a new chunk to DOOM that requires the use of an airship to get around. To my knowledge, the Universe is still the only zone in the game with that little obnoxious quirk to impede exploration.**
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umi
New Member
Posts: 43
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Post by umi on Feb 29, 2004 14:50:20 GMT -5
There are many parts of DOOM with one-way exits. I heard these were never intended and may have been overlooked since the zone was put together pretty fast. There may be parts of DOOM that you cant get to because of this which could be the reason that there is not always a way to Algodon.
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Post by pixie on Mar 1, 2004 0:16:15 GMT -5
Curiosity, if DOOM was intended to be added on to, can we submit zone ideas to 'fill in the blanks'?
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Post by RNBL Charis on Mar 1, 2004 16:06:12 GMT -5
Geez, I stay offline for the weekend and this DOOM board goes nuts after being dormant for a while... Ok, where to start... Haldane: It's easy to rattle off a list of DOOM functionality, given that you built it. It's not so easy to augment the zone when no notes, hints or anything were left behind for any eventual maintenance or build-out of the zone. I've likened it to being given random pieces of a jigsaw puzzle with no glimpse of the overall picture. The spirit is understood, but it's difficult to implement and very cryptic to follow when the only thing you have to work with are the zone's actual build documents, as well as whatever comments previous implementors deigned to leave behind. And, no, the sticky rooms weren't yours, their wide-spread implementation was courtesy of Unicorn, and I promptly removed them in one of my first clean-ups. The zone has changed since you left years ago, including the gateways that Umi mentioned and the level restrictions you'd wondered about, just to name a few. As for "another" assembly quest, there was never one in the zone to begin with. Not as of it's hand-off to me, at least. We can discuss further details offline, if you so desire. Umi: Yup, yup and yup. Pixie: People have always been welcome to submit DOOM ideas and suggestions, they've just typically been of the mob/item/eq variety. I can count the number of suggestions that I've actually received on MAYBE two hands, and that's an aggressive estimate. You're welcome to submit zone concepts but, just like any other submittals, please keep in mind that they'll probably be torn apart and rearranged to incorporate into DOOM. Of course, if I used it, I'd be certain to let you know =) If you have a stand-alone zone in the works, I'd suggest that you go through the proper zone approval channels.
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Post by Haldane on Mar 1, 2004 18:05:31 GMT -5
I don’t mean to be mean or petty about DOOM, Charis. I’m sorry that you read it that way. I tend to be rather sarcastic in my dealings with my ex-home, so I do apologize. I knew people were looking to be rid of me for months in there at the “end,” so it was really quite inconsiderate of me to leave things ambiguous. The simple fact is that the zone is as well documented and commented out as any other zone in the game. It isn’t the comments that were or weren’t left behind that are the issue. It’s the complexity of the loading commands for the zone itself. DOOM is a maze, and it was quite deliberately designed to be difficult for people to navigate. And frankly, the fact that there isn’t always a way to get all the way into the heart of the zone and take out Algodon on every uptime/reset was also deliberate (sorry Umi!). I wasn’t aware that I’d left any one way exits in there, but I guess anything is possible. It’s been a long time since I built the place, so everything tends to run together after a while. I don’t envy you the job of working to change a zone that is so difficult to understand. I had to use a lot of trial and error and use all the things I’d learned from other projects over the years to get the thing to work at all. Probability loads are a real nuisance to dig through at the best of times. As for the assembly quest… there was one in the zone when I implemented it. Assembly (at the time) was easy to use and could be tested pretty much instantly. I remember testing it on a test port to make sure it would work, then just leaving it be. I tended to do that since people followed my mortals around with their immortals if they thought they could learn something new/valuable from the experience. I’ve found my notes on the zone and I’ll give you the object numbers if you want. (Just talking to Charis on that one… I hate people passing along how to solve quests. It’s annoying) I’ll drop you an email to see if you’re interested in a copy of my original maps and notes. Those I can find, even if a typed out copy of the zone is eluding me tonight.
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Griffon
Junior Member
If you make funny faces long enough, this is what happens...
Posts: 81
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Post by Griffon on Mar 2, 2004 9:24:40 GMT -5
Here's a dumb, retarded, and probably stupid question... is DOOM able to be scouted by IMM's? After reading on the whole 'swapping out' of modules and stuff, and inclusion of sneaky, b@@@@@@-like tricks, I am very very interested in writing a little segment to the zone. However, in my 4 years of playing, I have yet to find the area. I don't want to ask other people, as that would ruin the fun, and I don't want the dirs just handed to me (cause I happen to like exploring), but I *do* want to help out... if there is someone who could assist me in this matter, please, please, please let me know. If it's something that shouldn't be discussed on the forums here, then by all means send me an e-mail... but I have a thing for making complicated, difficult, and deadly... things (yeah, things... we'll just leave it at that ) [glow=red,2,300]Nic[/glow]
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Post by ProtoClown on Mar 2, 2004 10:19:24 GMT -5
Here's a dumb, retarded, and probably stupid question... is DOOM able to be scouted by IMM's? This is answered quite clearly in the handbook. The answer is NO.
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Post by RNBL Charis on Mar 2, 2004 10:22:26 GMT -5
No mortal chars under level 20 can enter the zone.
No immortal chars under Demi can enter the zone.
Needless to say, being RNBL makes it... interesting... to maintain the zone on the main game port ;D
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Ciara
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by Ciara on Mar 2, 2004 10:46:00 GMT -5
Yeah, but you do a good job nonetheless And I'm glad there's *someone* willing to dig thru the maze of files that consists of Doom to maintain it.
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Ciara
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by Ciara on Mar 2, 2004 10:50:14 GMT -5
Here's a dumb, retarded, and probably stupid question... is DOOM able to be scouted by IMM's? After reading on the whole 'swapping out' of modules and stuff, and inclusion of sneaky, b@@@@@@-like tricks, I am very very interested in writing a little segment to the zone. However, in my 4 years of playing, I have yet to find the area. I don't want to ask other people, as that would ruin the fun, and I don't want the dirs just handed to me (cause I happen to like exploring), but I *do* want to help out... if there is someone who could assist me in this matter, please, please, please let me know. If it's something that shouldn't be discussed on the forums here, then by all means send me an e-mail... but I have a thing for making complicated, difficult, and deadly... things (yeah, things... we'll just leave it at that ) [glow=red,2,300]Nic[/glow] My first suggestion to you, Griffon, is that you write several regular zones first to actually understand *how* zones actually work and to get a grasp of the workings of loading and other manipulations you can make within a zone file. After that, perhaps you could make a few suggestions to Charis. Quite honestly, it's easier to have one person maintaining a zone with the complexity of Doom. It's also better to keep the secrets of Doom, just that. Secrets.
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Post by Dank on Mar 31, 2004 19:33:31 GMT -5
call me a baby. tell me that my precious junk eq is worth more than an abiding pride in my mental toughness. berate my timidity. go ahead. simply, i'm not going to run a zone if it's not soloable. at least solo mappable. i'm probably missing the best damned zone in the game, but what's the motivation for losing a month's worth of eq? it's human nature to weigh the risks before plunging into the unknown. even bungee jumpers and parachutists have some large percentage of success running in their favor. i don't mind fear... i love a challenge. but if you've simply written a F U zone to cap pc's, count me out. the thought of an eq maze doesn't turn me on in the least bit, especially when i can tour the immersive Ravenna or Sanctuary instead. i guess the next time i'm in, i'll ask around and see if i can't tag along on an expedition to DOOM. until then, i can only beg other developers to open their zones on a broad level, and then write restrictive room connects or sub-zones with prose to support the dangers that may lie within. i don't mud for the eq. the eq simply let's me wander around more freely, exploring with some confidence that i'll be able to do the same thing tomorrow. i do this for leisure. i've got enough hassles to deal with at work and at home. so basically, there's no harm in putting out the welcome mat, even if you'll just pull it out from under our feet at a later time. entice me. titilate me. make me beg for more. maybe not titilate me. perhaps i crossed the line there.
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