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Post by Silverking on Jan 1, 2009 17:49:25 GMT -5
What ever happened to the class revision project?
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Post by Tarbal on Jan 1, 2009 19:20:53 GMT -5
i think that it would have to be on another player and you could only get xp for hp's healed.....
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Post by ching on Jan 7, 2009 14:25:41 GMT -5
so....yeah....i think that an increase in cost for quake would be a good start to balance it out.....and i am sure i will regret even bringing it up since have a multi-remort cleric....however....if xp were awarded for heals (including cures?) it would offset quake xp loss and encourage grouping....maybe make it so that you can gain xp from healing only other players....who knows..... What they need to do is get XP for the damage they DO heal. If the tank is down 120hp and you toss off a 150hp heal, you only get the XP for the 120hp (not the extra 30 you did not actually heal.) This would make it so you had to heal. Also it should only give you XP on heals you do within a group. I use 'disposable tanks' all the time, where you order a mob to attack, then ungroup it. I could heal them all day with no xp because I am using them as a disposable tank, and actually plan on them to die. However a real PC, you keep grouped and alive. That is where you should get the XP. (maybe even xp only for actual damage healed on PCs only?)
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Mal
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Post by Mal on Jan 7, 2009 14:46:07 GMT -5
I agree - that would be a nice change for healers. (paladins, antipaladins, jedis, etc)
They should get xp for 'damage' they heal off a PC. This should ideally not apply to an NPC. Ex. Shouldn't beat down Drudgery to awful, and then sit there restoring him for xp.
Aaron
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Post by Tarbal on Jan 7, 2009 17:05:40 GMT -5
that is basically what i had intended....only get xp for hp's healed and only on PC's....
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Simba
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Post by Simba on Feb 21, 2009 1:40:55 GMT -5
I think restore and rejuvenate should be switched on the level you get them. restore is basically a heal & rejuvenate spell so it would make sense to have both of them first...then the combined spell.
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Mal
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Post by Mal on Mar 29, 2009 12:46:59 GMT -5
When cleric casts heal on self, make it as strong as a paladin heal. When cast on others, keep it at its regular strength.
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Post by ching on Mar 30, 2009 13:07:06 GMT -5
When cleric casts heal on self, make it as strong as a paladin heal. When cast on others, keep it at its regular strength. Why? Does your own divine sponsor (who gives you this power) think you are less worthy of healing than those you also protect? Are you just trying to Nerf clerics to get them to group? What happens when a cleric heals an other cleric? WHY?
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Mal
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Post by Mal on Mar 30, 2009 14:26:38 GMT -5
Are you just trying to Nerf clerics to get them to group? Even if heals were reduced to 70 hp per, clerics could still quake to their hearts content for faster xp. It would only make it moderately more difficult, and possibly encourage clerics to group more even if quaking together. Also, as suggested a LONG time ago, healing players (not mobs) giving xp would be a welcome change too.
WHY? Ask a doctor how well he can operate on himself versus another patient.
As for magic, same reason a paladin can't lay hands on himself.
Aaron
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Post by Aneyou on Mar 30, 2009 15:42:12 GMT -5
Clerics aren't doctors. They use magic. I mean I use magic when i work on my dental patients, but not everyone is like me. Some people just use regular human abilities. Point of the story, Ching's right, you are trying to nerf them just to make them group. The problem doesn't lie in that, the problem lies in their role in groups and how that role significantly impacts how much xp they can get. I agree that they should be able to get better xp from groups, but until then your personal vendetta against people who decide to run solo needs to be aborted. It is not the player's jobs to try to keep everyone happy and save the game by running in a group and getting 5 times slower xp. I dont ever blame anyone for wanting to run xp faster. So until it is made so that I can get good xp as a cleric in a group, I probably wont run as a cleric in a group, unless I am specifically helping a newbie, or a friend, or group of friends.
Anton
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Post by Aneyou on Mar 30, 2009 15:47:33 GMT -5
Oh and as for all the other posts. I totally support xp from heals, and a significant amount too. Enough to make a grouped mana regen cleric get just as much xp as anyone else in the group. Simba, perfect reasoning about restore/rejuv, I agree with you.
I also agree that clerics should not get xp for healing anything but PC's and if not combined with a reduction in earthquake damage/xp, then they should not get xp for healing themselves. Meaning if they nerf earthquake, then they SHOULD get xp for healing themselves. If they don't nerf earthquake, then they shouldnt. As this would just compound the problem. Also, it should be ensured that the new group enlightenment combined with this so the cleric also got that boost if a sohei was in group.
Anton
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Post by Tarbal on Mar 31, 2009 5:37:08 GMT -5
ya know....this is just me....but i dont even try to solo my cleric unless there is no one else on....and even then i usually will not even log it on....soloing for me is boring...i would rather run in a decent 3-5 man group and have a lot of fun rather than just power level....then again...running a char to perf was never something that i really cared too much about anyways....
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Mal
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Post by Mal on Mar 31, 2009 21:45:54 GMT -5
Ching's right, you are trying to nerf them just to make them group. The problem doesn't lie in that, the problem lies in their role in groups and how that role significantly impacts how much xp they can get. I agree that they should be able to get better xp from groups I agree. The real issue lies that clerics don't get squat for xp in groups, its horrible xp quite frankly. With blessed 150 mana regen they might get a few spells tossed in there, but won't even be comparable to leveling a ninja - and only crazy people do that! but until then your personal vendetta against people who decide to run solo needs to be aborted. Damn, you saw right through me. I don't have a vendetta against people who decide to run xp faster by quaking solo, although they should not be offended if they play a different class and get rejected from joining an xp group where the cleric is getting 5x slower xp. If each mudder gives up the benefit of 'fast quake xp' in a group (taking turns each day say) everyone wins right? - and ultimately, everyone gets to have more fun overall. This is a player decision / choice / view, not really an idea for change, so I should probably leave it at that. I won't lie that my suggestion was based off this. I guess I am trying to find alternative routes since the overpowered earthquake has not been changed in how long? Like Tarbal, I try and group as often as I can. The heart of the issue is clerics get squat xp in groups. It should be changed. Aaron PS: I have absolutely no vendettas against anyone!
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Post by Aneyou on Apr 2, 2009 3:31:59 GMT -5
I don't have a vendetta against people who decide to run xp faster by quaking solo...... and then..... although they should not be offended if they play a different class and get rejected from joining an xp group
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Mal
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Post by Mal on Apr 2, 2009 9:36:39 GMT -5
Both statements can be true. I don't quite get the point your trying to make.
Aaron
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Simba
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Post by Simba on Apr 2, 2009 16:29:44 GMT -5
Actually I do! Basically solo quaking is the run around to remort exp penalty. I dislike people using groups to power level themselves and going solo at level 16. It's very selfish behavior. If you only use groups for that and only want to solo..why should those of us that do run groups let you in the group? One hand washes the other. It's like old school eq running with just the leader and tank getting all the eq..and if for some reason more than 2 things loaded...scraps for the rest. People get tired of being used for others gain. It would be nice to see not a drop in group exp with more people that may help as well.
I will always run a group with my cleric!
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Post by gambler on Jun 7, 2010 12:41:49 GMT -5
The cleric class is still looking for valid reasons to group versus solo. It's tough to do most of the work to keep the group alive during an HH and receive around 2.5M for your efforts while the tanking classes all notch 5-5.5M. Even with the extra 5 mana consumed, it's still 3x more efficient to just go quaking.
I know this has probably been mentioned a few times, but this idea is something that needs to be implemented for the cleric class:
Experience gains for heal and restore, based on the tank being healed NOT being yourself, nor being a mob, and based on how many hitpoints you actually heal (otherwise, you'll have an afk warrior sitting at the temple being healed by an afk cleric...).
I'd suggest 10 experience points gained for each hitpoint restored to the tank. Before you think that's 'too much', a cleric can get 5-10K per quake (30 mana) on just spell xp. We need more reasons for people to group!!
Outside of the flamestrike spell being phenomenally costly for the fail rate at like... 1/4 to 1/8th dmg, the cleric class it in pretty good order.
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Post by gonfalon on Jun 7, 2010 14:51:18 GMT -5
It seems like I’m jumping on the bandwagon pointing out the obvious, but as your premier healing class in the game, giving clerics experience for healing is almost a no brainer. They excel at healing. It’s pretty much their core skill, so they should get some tangible benefit for doing it.
However, it seems that the major issue is that clerics cannot get the same experience in a group healing that they can wandering around throwing down earthquakes in Goblinsville or Sanctuary, then it would be pretty simple to remove the problem. And I’m not saying “remove earthquake.” I’m saying it makes sense to me for clerics to get experience for healing spells and none at all for using their damage spells. Make that experience significant enough so they don’t feel like everyone else is getting experience a thousand times faster.
That would encourage clerics to group, without taking away some of their most powerful soloing skills and abilities, which have everything to do with their toughness and longevity and very little to do with some foolish ability to get _bloated_ experience from a midlevel spell that allows them to murder hundreds of low to mid level mobs that pose pretty much no threat to their safety.
Let them get experience for healing anyone and anything that is hurt. Does it matter what the target is? If the players are and the mobs “share” the game world, then why add artificial distinctions? If it becomes a problem, code a flag that you can put on mobs to put in some kind of system of diminishing returns. Clerics have a great deal of staying power, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but maybe they have _too much_ stopping power to go along with it? If a cleric can kill several of a mob that a warrior struggles to kill once, and if this is perceived to be a problem, then change it.
This game used to be moderately challenging in some places. The challenge now is more from the addition of blanket procedures to everything over a certain level to make things “harder.” Damage reflection, spell resistance, and the like are all well and good, but they don’t address the underlying problem. Maybe toning down some of peoples’ favorite toys is something that should be considered. As long as clerics can walk into a room full of level 12 mobs and quake it twice for less mana expenditure and more experience gain than actually fighting something that might kill them, I don’t blame them at all for doing it.
Yes, I know my viewpoint will be unpopular. And no, I don’t really care that it’s going to annoy people to read it. I don’t really see any practical difference between a crash bug and an overpowered skill or spell. These are issues that are best fixed with code. Wholesale changes to the world and mobs themselves to fix these problems would take years.
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Post by gambler on Jun 7, 2010 21:36:02 GMT -5
Honestly... I thought this was a place for suggesting changes that will help enchance gameplay (up to and including enjoyment). The prior post is simply asking for an outright nerfing of the class itself based on individual opinion. You can't state things like 'I realize this may be unpopular'... Translation: "I don't care what anyone else thinks, or who it may drive off, b/c my opinion is supreme". You have to realize that this game was fun, and IS getting to be fun again. Please don't take us back to the dark ages with sweeping reform ideas.
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Post by gonfalon on Jun 8, 2010 19:55:22 GMT -5
People are free to listen to me or to ignore me. It’s their choice. Which they choose to do is up to them. I don’t think that removing the experience gains from damage spells on clerics constitutes “nerfing” them. Functionally, earthquake is a clone of fireblast. Sure, the damage and casting cost are different… but it’s an area effect damage spell that is mostly good for one thing; eradicating rooms full of gate guards, goblins, or whatnot.
The question that needs to be asked is “Should we just combine the cleric and mage classes, since people are playing clerics like mages who can heal themselves anyway?” I scanned some of the other boards recently. There was an amusing discussion about combining thieves and ninja just that way at one point. _That_ would be the kind of change you describe… sweeping and game altering. Giving clerics experience for healing people instead of damaging them would probably only encourage a general trend toward more grouping or solo clerics spending more time in zones worthy of their level.
Next you’re going to throw your hands in the air and complain that some people want to solo… solo… solo! I don’t see how this would change their ability to solo. Sure, they might have to change what zone they go play in to optimize their experience gains, but isn’t it a little embarrassing to have “high level” clerics hanging out in midlevel zones because they’re safe, easy experience?
I am fully cognizant of the fact that clerics have been one of the pet classes around Jedi for ages. I seriously doubt that will change. They’re just too useful to weaken them significantly. That they are useful members of any solid group is a no-brainer. Who else is going to heal you? Group utility is good, but they’re also one of the most powerful solo classes. That’s pretty much inevitable given the fact that everyone hits really hard these days and their toolkit gives them superlative survivability.
I reiterate. I think earthquake, as a clone of fireblast, needs to be looked at. How is it used? Is this use and the pattern of behavior it encourages desirable? At the very least, they should consider doubling the mana cost of earthquake. Not only do clerics get their area effect _before_ mages (the people who specialize in casting damage spells, you know, mages) but the spell costs about _half_ what the lowest level mage area effect does.
Next time I think I am going to post, I’ll be sure to run my ideas past you first. That way I can be sure that what I say, do, or suggest doesn’t rub you the wrong way. After all, it’s a great thing to have an open forum to air opinions, especially if they have an opportunity to pass the commissar’s checklist first. I should see if I can get the Gold seal of approval!
I’m not going to bother suggesting any “sweeping reform ideas” any time in the future. I would hate to be responsible for single-handedly plunging the game back into any kind of Dark Age, even one where the average number of people who log on (not the peak) is larger than ten. I’m still not sure how a minor tweak to earthquake would bring JediMUD’s society grinding to a halt, but hey… I’m just not clever that way I guess.
Anyway, I think I should take a second to be crystal clear on why I feel the spell is overpowered. It’s way too cheap (see above). Clerics get a free pass to a huge percentage of the game with their protection spells, and can calm a large bit of the rest. This means they can pretty much target the spell at will without going to very much effort. Clerics also get powerful built in defenses that other classes with viable area effects don’t have.
I am not (nor will I) going to point to one of the strongest classes in the game and push for them to get yet another perk to make them even easier to play. I am here because I love this game, which at its core is still my home. I might go find something better to do with my time occasionally, rather than listen to them blather on (in endless circles) about their favorite topics, but when I come back I will still occasionally weigh in on these discussions. And when I do bother to say something, it will be with an eye toward making the game fun for everyone, not just the 40% of the people on here who have decided Clerics Rock and always will. I am not afraid to say things that are unpopular. I don’t like going to get my tetanus shot, but it beats the hell out of a slow, painful death. Sometimes the best solution to a problem is something that isn’t going to make you any fans.
As I said, people are free to agree or disagree with me as they see fit. And yes, my opinion is supreme in my own mind. Just as yours is supreme in yours. I’m entitled to my opinion and your transparent attempt to turn my observation and opinions into some kind of apocryphal harbinger for the end of days does not change that.
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Rox
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Post by Rox on Jun 9, 2010 13:10:10 GMT -5
My 0.02.... If we are worried that goblinville is the place or clerics to power level up due to quaking, then make goblins resist earthquake spell. As far as I can think off, that is the only area except for maybe Star Wars that clerics go to quake but the mobs there hit a lot harder too. That solves the problem of cleric from leveling up faster than any class though I think mages do the same levels 25 and above. Feedback/stones/rocks/spears welcome
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Mal
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Post by Mal on Jun 10, 2010 2:37:23 GMT -5
There are two aspects to this problem: 1. clerics being overpowered 2. clerics not being practical grouping
Changing earthquake, modifying goblins, etc does not make clerics any more practical for grouping. I can run a mage as fast as I can run a cleric solo.
If you make clerics less practical, then players will switch to another class, not suddenly go "hey, I want to group as a cleric".
1. Giving clerics xp for healing the tank 2. Giving clerics auto-heal on tank (this would treated no differently then a trigger in the case of botting etc. but would make telnet easier.) 3. Significantly boosting the power of harm and flamestrike - in groups you are often faced with single mobs, not clusters, and cause critic just doesn't cut it. Few mobs are call lightningable, and you can only dispel according to your align (which makes sense.) 4. Allow heal spells to go up to 100 hp over a characters maximum hit points as temporary hit points. (crazy I know.) 5. Running along with lines of auto-heal, boost clerics power to heal the specified tank (tank cannot be self.)
Stone skin is a MAGE spell not a CLERIC spell.
For me personally, if I am multi-tasking, be it writing a new zone, doing work, folding laundry, etc. Mana-demanding classes are a top choice. Clerics, Mages, Bards (with Petrify) and Rangers (with stampede). Of course soloing, as the alternative is botting.
When I am not multi-tasking I do group with my cleric but I also like to level up my non-cleric classes in a group but there isn't a lot of people stepping up to play group cleric.
Make a skill that is like berserk but can only be done when the player is not in combat for tank-classes.
Thanks to Aneyou, clerics are a bit more practical with one of his zones that he has created.
This leads to me my final point, create xp zones where clerics can benefit from quake xp but generally require a tank to go through safely - like two assisting/warrior-proc attendants in one room (plus the little mobs)
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