Class : Cleric

[Wamphryi]

Ok well someone had to start this sooo.......

Now some say clerics are just right, some say they are overpowered.
But as someone who almost only runs clerics, I for one say yes they are overpowered. (ok time for the meanieing to commense----you have 5 seconds.......TIME!)

One thing like I posted in another thread I would like to see alignment effected spells. Evil clerics have stronger damage on their offensive spells and slightly weaker healing, where good clerics are visa versa.

Earthquake needs toned down (*GASP* ???did he just say that!). Yes I did. It's way to powerful.

I would like to see a remove sanct spell on evil clerics(or maybe that would be a better apal spell). Of course this would need to lead to a sanct proc probably for some mobs(like firedragon, andrus,...).

Instead of having 3 different cure spells, why not make a spell just called cure. But its lvl dependent. The higher lvl you are-the more you heal.

I would like to see a spell like Pray which can effect your alignment, not the whole group like communal prayer but just yours. Maybe say 50mana for 75-100 align points. This works up or down depending on your alignment, yeah neutral is screwed out of this one.

well ok yall can continue this for now I dont wanna type anymore.

[Silverking]

I really like the "cure" idea. A cleric gets the "heal" spell at level five, but as he/she gains levels, the spell gets more powerful.

I think that more spells should turn to this type of structure.

[Dank]

[glow=red,2,300]Clerics[/glow] are a powerful class, not because they possess overwhelming damage bonuses, or overwhelming offensive abilities, but because they are the healers of the game. In this special role, the experienced cleric has a deep understanding of the JediMUD, collects information about zones, equipment, special procs, other players' game styles and most importantly, zone-by-zone strategy.

If used properly, this class can perform as the cornerstone of the game, serving varying roles depending on the whim of the individual player. With a wide range of options to choose from, a cleric can range in balance from that of a monk (mana/mana regen) to that of a paladin (dam/mana regen).

I like that. I've played a neutral solo cleric for about ten years. The class serves the type of game I play. I like to explore, solve puzzles and help newbies.

CLASS ATTRIBUTES

A. Spells

1. Omit single-combat offensive spells

Frankly, there is no need for the few offensive spells that remain. As a battle cleric, I have chosen to gather a perfect balance of damage bonus gear and mana regen gear. I almost never use flamestrike, cause [light/serious/critic], or harm.

2. Adjust mana cost for area spells

The single area spell, earthquake, is a nice touch. I think that for such a powerful spell, the mana cost should be adjusted. 25 mana for a powerful area spell is too low and causes imbalance. Earthquake should cost maybe 2xsanctuary or 200 mana.

3. Pets

A. Alignment Modification - Reanimate

Force clerics to gain evil alignment before the spell "reanimate" will work. No self-respecting man of the cloth would bring the dead back to the living unless he or she were a necromancer. Pets will wander when the caller becomes neutral/good.

B. Reduce charisma/pet ratio

No need for any pc to be supported by pets. Almost like multi-playing in my opinion. I've never needed more than three pets anyway. Slash the charisma/pet ratio in half for better balance

C. New pets

With the rebalance, dump gate one/two/three/summon aerial, and replace with a single source summon that will bring in a creature from another plane appropriate to the caster's level and alignment. Again, pets summoned at one alignment will wander when the caster's alignment changes. Bring the spell in at level 15 or so, and just beef up the pet per level. Throw in a wild random variance to that there is a chance of calling a _very_ powerful pet (%5) or a very weak pet (5%).

MORE LATER (time to go to work)

[ProtoClown]

I think your ideas are generally good, but i disagree about clerics. They are an overpowering class because they possess overwhelming damage bonuses and overwhelming offensive abilities.

I think their biggest problem is that they just don't translate very well from the paper-based world of the roleplaying community (really good fighting, armored, spellcasting priests) into our virtual realm. All of their game-based bonuses have a very well balanced roleplaying constraint in those paper-based games -- the concept of a deity who will become very pissed off if the cleric performs actions against that deity's ideology. Try though we might, we'll never be able to duplicate that limitation on JediMUD because good, evil, and neutral just don't cut it. Lacking that roleplaying constraint, clerics suddenly become a very attractive class in those paper-based games (as opposed to the way they typically are now, which in the words of gamers here in West Lafayette -- and the world over -- "Crap...you mean I have to play the cleric?").

So what we really need to do is re-imagine the cleric entirely and re-design them with whatever that creative idea becomes. And I have no idea what the cleric *should* be, but I know that no one will really be satisfied if they are simply "mages that heal" or "combat medics." What I do know is that any class that is considered to be a group of fighting, well-armored spellcasters will be, by definition, more powerful than any other class in our combat-oriented virtual world unless they are given real and burdensome limitations.

[Arizhel]

ProtoClown said:

I think your ideas are generally good, but i disagree about clerics. They are an overpowering class because they possess overwhelming damage bonuses and overwhelming offensive abilities.

I think their biggest problem is that they just don't translate very well from the paper-based world of the roleplaying community (really good fighting, armored, spellcasting priests) into our virtual realm. All of their game-based bonuses have a very well balanced roleplaying constraint in those paper-based games -- the concept of a deity who will become very pissed off if the cleric performs actions against that deity's ideology. Try though we might, we'll never be able to duplicate that limitation on JediMUD because good, evil, and neutral just don't cut it. Lacking that roleplaying constraint, clerics suddenly become a very attractive class in those paper-based games (as opposed to the way they typically are now, which in the words of gamers here in West Lafayette -- and the world over -- "Crap...you mean I have to play the cleric?").

So what we really need to do is re-imagine the cleric entirely and re-design them with whatever that creative idea becomes. And I have no idea what the cleric *should* be, but I know that no one will really be satisfied if they are simply "mages that heal" or "combat medics." What I do know is that any class that is considered to be a group of fighting, well-armored spellcasters will be, by definition, more powerful than any other class in our combat-oriented virtual world unless they are given real and burdensome limitations.

I agree with you on all of the counts here except one. I enjoy playing the cleric in pencil and paper RPG's. My current D&D character is a 3rd level lawful good cleric of Helm.

That said, I agree that a lot of people can't handle the constraints that not only your deity, but your very alignment put on your character. A good character on JediMUD can go quake toddlers, as long as he or she is sure to quake goblins afterward. If a "good" cleric in D&D earthquaked a room full of toddlers, there would more than likely be hell to pay, quite literally. Deities aren't known for lenience towards followers that fall from grace.

Now, if only we could find a way to translate this into our game, it might just make clerics a lot more balanced.

[pixie]

Umm considered 4-10x align penalties for killing certain mobs? make clerics pick align, much like jedis, except not allowed to change that remort... If you kill evil, so what? its your job! 1 align boost...

What youre good and you killed a toddler? -400 align!

Easy to loose, hard to gain, and spells restricted at creation?

Just a thought!

[Dank]

pixie's right. there are some mobiles that should possess significant alignment penalties. the toddlers are a clear example.

however, it may be time to re-align the entire mud in order to bring some zones into balance. for example, the sanctuary city guards seem to possess an out-of-scale alignment penalty, commensurate with killing a sleeping novice at the midgaard temple.


perhaps our guild master could provide one more services... that of a confessor... for a fee. out-of-alignment pc's could realign at their temple based on level and degree of misalignment.


in the long run, and in the interest of game play, don't make alignment penalties so overwhelming that they limit group play. i'd hate to have to play only neutral areas for the rest of my life.

[Arizhel]

This is completely off topic but I have to ask.

Is that a picture of you that you're using as your avatar, Dank?

[Silverking]

I think the alignment penalty Pixie mentioned would be a great idea, but I think something more could be added. Possibly some kind of holy punishment along with the alignment penalty. Perhaps a loss of %20 of your regen capability? Or something similar.

I've also been thinking of some kind of God/Goddess worship type thing. Bear with me.

During the downtime over the Christmas holiday, I tried a ROM mud. In a ROM, the immortals of the game can be "worshiped", at a price, but provide certain benefits. For instance, "worship [insert good aligned God here]" would cost 500k gold, and would give you a 5% hitregen bonus. But there would be a condition to this. You would have to stay the alignment of the God, or else you would loose your regen bonus, and not be allowed to worship the God again. The God would also "curse" the player for a period of one mud year with a curse of -5% hp regen.

Just a thought.

[Arizhel]

I'd give +5 sexyness to my followers.

*preen*

[Griffon]

Trying to figure out what the 'sexiness' would fall under here... Str, dex, con are out... maybe charisma?

I like the 'pray to the gods' sort of idea... maybe a whole new 'cleric-realm' zone would be in order for something like this... then, instead of picking gods, we can pick... you guessed it... a diety for the cleric. Take a page (or 30) out of the D&D sort of stuff, and incorporate that into the game.

I do agree that earthquake is very powerful, but I think 200 mana is quite a hefty price.

The whole heal concept is kindof nice... learn at level 5, and it gets more powerful at the levels that you would learn the other spells (light/critic/heal, etc.) at.

Also, here's another wierd thought... flamestrike should be gone... and clerics don't need that much more dam spells... so why not give them a package spell that allows them to cast sanc, stskin, armor, and bless on a target? Sort of like a super advanced potion... but it would cost around 350 mana or so... so it's a trade-off. I for one would use it, as it saves lots of time having to make tons of aliases and typing all of that crap out

Just my thoughts...
Nic

p.s. Oh, and Ariz... to give out sexiness points, shouldn't you *be* sexy in the first place? *ducks*

[Silverking]

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to have a combined spell like that. Let's say you're in a group romping around, and your take has this spell cast on him and right in the middle of a fight, you loose the spell. Once the mob is dead, if you live that long, you have to spend an enormous amount of mana to get him respelled.

Now, take the same seniaro, but the spells are cast individually. They each have different lengths of time that they will last, so if your tank looses a stone skin, 40 mana spent, no big deal. You loose a sanc, 100 mana spent, no big deal. But if you have to stop, cast a 350 mana spell, it would be a huge pain in the butt, and a nice way to screw up the extreme zonage (aka mojo) that occurs in a well tuned group.

Just my two cents.

[Arizhel]

Griffon said:

Also, here's another wierd thought... flamestrike should be gone... and clerics don't need that much more dam spells... so why not give them a package spell that allows them to cast sanc, stskin, armor, and bless on a target? Sort of like a super advanced potion... but it would cost around 350 mana or so... so it's a trade-off. I for one would use it, as it saves lots of time having to make tons of aliases and typing all of that crap out

I disagree. Flamestrike is one of the most well-known cleric spells. Nothing says loving like a pillar of holy fire from your deity striking down your foes in their tracks.

Griffon said:

p.s. Oh, and Ariz... to give out sexiness points, shouldn't you *be* sexy in the first place? *ducks*

I -am- sexy. It's written all over the bathroom walls in the amusement park, despite the best efforts of the overworked and underpaid attendants.

It's also carved into the desk in Conseq's office, but I did that so it doesn't count.

[Silverking]

Underpaid attendants? Isn't there like 18k gold on those suckers? Must be union workers.

[Arizhel]

They're severely underpaid. It's a crisis in our realm. Restroom attendants barely make enough to feed their large families, which is why they turn to bribes from graffiti artists and vandals just so they can put food on the table.

And it's 22k.

[Mediocrity]

I've played cleric for roughly 6 yrs straight now. And after playing through every other class, I still choose to play cleric. The problem with saying, "How can we fix" clerics results from comparison to other classes. I mean, yes, quake is too cheap for what it does. lvl 13? 25 mana? Too low on both personally. In comparison, mage area spells are spendy and a waste (except for things like tnuke).
You want to make clerics group more often? Change how you play the game. Call lightning is still my best bang for my mana. Sure quake running is faster... but I get tired of seeing the same rooms over and over. Make a stupid goal for yourself. Force yourself to play a character that has some dumb self imposed rule. For example:
I've played a cleric that at lvl 30 did not break 100 hp. I currently have a cleric that the only gear I'm using that I didn't run with him is a hoverboard. Make a cleric that MUST group. Or don't practice all the spells. Try making a backstabbing cleric, those are big fun. I understand that there are power gamers out there who only care about gear, gold and glory. They burn out quick.
Ultimately, I'll keep playing. However Jedimud looks in the future, I'll probably be there.

[Tam]

Mediocrity said:

Force yourself to play a character that has some dumb self imposed rule.

See, that's just the problem. Currently every cleric is a cleric. Ie: there are only so many skills/spells and you always get to learn them all. If we had a means customize your character, where there was a lot more skills and you picked the ones you liked best, you wouldn't need to create restrictions out of thin air. You could say things like "Ok.. I'm going to focus this cleric on protecting and healing people." or "My god is a vengeful one and I'm going to annihilate all who oppose him." you could pick your spells/skills accordingly.

.02
-Tam

[Griffon]

Silverking said:

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to have a combined spell like that. Let's say you're in a group romping around, and your take has this spell cast on him and right in the middle of a fight, you loose the spell. Once the mob is dead, if you live that long, you have to spend an enormous amount of mana to get him respelled.

Now, take the same seniaro, but the spells are cast individually. They each have different lengths of time that they will last, so if your tank looses a stone skin, 40 mana spent, no big deal. You loose a sanc, 100 mana spent, no big deal. But if you have to stop, cast a 350 mana spell, it would be a huge pain in the butt, and a nice way to screw up the extreme zonage (aka mojo) that occurs in a well tuned group..

That's the goal, mate. If they want to risk doing that, then more power to them... but beware. Because my plan was to have all this go at once. Not piece by piece as a warning, and tics don't vary by level, but rather a random dieroll (say, 5 and 10 tics). Entropy is a wonderful thing, imho.

Nic

[Griffon]

Tam said:

See, that's just the problem. Currently every cleric is a cleric. Ie: there are only so many skills/spells and you always get to learn them all. If we had a means customize your character, where there was a lot more skills and you picked the ones you liked best, you wouldn't need to create restrictions out of thin air. You could say things like "Ok.. I'm going to focus this cleric on protecting and healing people." or "My god is a vengeful one and I'm going to annihilate all who oppose him." you could pick your spells/skills accordingly.

And therin lies the wonders of dieties(sp). Maybe have x# of spells anyone can choose to learn, as well as a specific set for y diety. One for healing, one for vengence, etc. al. It may cost more of your practices to learn from certian dieties, leaving you fewer of the all-around spells to choose from.

Nic

[pixie]

how about spells have varied effects according to who you worshiped this morning? Vishnu might not be to happy with you if you worshiped allah yesterday, so might choose to kill your regen for a month

Ok in realistic terms..

what if our lovely demi's were to write a self describing set of rules for their followers, and have some kind of log to follow them. Clerics could worship at the demi statues for regen bonuses, and to repent to PC if they has killed a goblin...

Clerics who fail to worship and tythe regularly can be punished by their demi, and can choose to change gods, at great risk of loosing spells/skills.

Make it more interactive!

I want +5 sexiness!

-Pix

[umi]

Insulting the Yankees or showing my statue some boobs will probably get you forgiven.

[sabbath]

umi said:

Insulting the Yankees or showing my statue some boobs will probably get you forgiven.

Isn't that what we have Stingie for? (now I'll find out if she checks these boards)

[umi]

Sting reads the boards. I have the insulting private messages to prove it.

[Stingest]

[glow=green,6,1200]Umi SUCKS[/glow]
that's in green! do i get +7 to sexiness?
not that i need it, i would donate some of it to
Pink

[umi]

Yeah, that was pretty neat.