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Post by sabbath on Feb 20, 2004 11:59:22 GMT -5
[glow=green,6,1200]Umi SUCKS[/glow] that's in green! do i get +7 to sexiness? not that i need it, i would donate some of it to Pink[/i][/u][/move]
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Post by pixie on Feb 20, 2004 18:03:38 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]PIXIE IS THE SEXIEST OF YOU ALL[/glow]
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Pink
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by Pink on Feb 21, 2004 3:18:10 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]you are all freaks![/glow] ;D
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Post by Arizhel on Feb 21, 2004 14:50:01 GMT -5
*looks around in a bewildered manner* Where'd the discussion about clerics wander off to?
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Post by pixie on Feb 22, 2004 3:17:17 GMT -5
I was serious about the worshiping the demi's idea
then you could have more of the interactive punishing god thing, like paper and pencil games...
maybe cooler dieties, like gods, cimps, imp could be bought with remorts or something...
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Ciara
Full Member
Posts: 173
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Post by Ciara on Feb 22, 2004 22:15:57 GMT -5
maybe cooler dieties, like gods, cimps, imp could be bought with remorts or something... You can't afford me.
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Post by pixie on Feb 22, 2004 23:40:27 GMT -5
Just 1 more try IS THIS IDEA FEASIBLE?
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Post by ProtoClown on Feb 24, 2004 22:56:03 GMT -5
It's certainly feasible. But it's got its problems, too. I, for one, would feel rather odd about having mortal worshipers for my virtual demigod persona. But maybe that's just me. (And what are my worshipers really going to do, anyway, sit around in the various libraries talking about the deconstruction of the metaphyiscs of presence? I think not. And if they can't even do that, what use are they to me? Fodder for my rising goblin armies, yes, but the rest of the mortals can fill that little role without whining to me for special privilages because of it.) I think a modified version of this would be great. Something like what Tam has planned with regard to spheres of influence with regard to skills. If we wanted an "official" pantheon, you could mold yourself into the model of your chosen patron god or goddess by selecting the appropriate skill areas. So I think you're definitely on the right track here. Keep generating ideas. Keep discussing!
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Griffon
Junior Member
If you make funny faces long enough, this is what happens...
Posts: 81
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Post by Griffon on Feb 26, 2004 12:42:04 GMT -5
Ok... so what about instead of praying to DEMI+'s, why don't we create... idk... 10 or 15 different dieties, and have their statues scattered around the mud. The basic ones (i.e. balanced and feasible, but not *that* great) are all in easy locations to find (like hometowns and such), but some of the more powerful dieties are far out of the way, and maybe some of them even move.
Just a thought...
Nic
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Wamphryi
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The blood is the Life.
Posts: 31
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Post by Wamphryi on Mar 27, 2004 23:36:41 GMT -5
-- heal is a level 16 spell and when used in conjuction with sanctuary you get a an equivalent 400 hp heals, heal = 100-200 hp heal x 2 for sanct = 200-400 hps -- So change sanctuary, break it up make it a 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% damage reducing spells in a line, or to prevent 2x effect of heal spells give a + hp instead -- add delay to certain spells ie a more efficient heal spell has a rnd delay attached to it, a less efficient spell would not, this adds to the complexity of the class, earthquake for example would be a great spell to have delay on I just wanted to comment on the above 3: -sanctuary causing heals to double, that would be completely insane. Clerics are arguably one of, if not the most overall powerful class on jedi. This one change alone would completely break them(break as is make them so insanely crazy). Hell I would love this if the admin ever took some good drugs and actually did this. Just imagine, eq groups only needing one cleric. I can use half the mana while exping so I don't have to stop and regen as much. Or use the extra mana to cast offensive and kill things faster. And isnt this completely against what sanctuary really is. Its to stop damage not cure it. -I like this idea to a point. Have sanctuary have a random percentage to be assigned for the damage prevention when cast. Have higher wisdom & higher level effect the higher change of a 50% sanct but not have it be such an unbalanced chance that 7+remorters have a complete monopoly of the change. Maybe have it be a 30 40 or 50% chance. Would definately be an interesting twist. Maybe instead of the way sanct currently is (ie concerning duration) all sancts would last say 8 ticks but be a percentage of prevention. But then of course there would come a point where a wise and powerful cleric would become skilled and 99% of the time would throw 50% sancts. THis would have to be determined by maybe wis/age/remorts/level or a combination of them. Because a 200yr old 14remort 25wis lvl 30 cleric realistically after all that time and knowledge the cleric would have gained thru his travels/quests would not fail a whole hell of a lot at his sancts, but noone is perfect so he would have some failures but just not alot seeing as he is wise and powerful. But yet a 17 year old "apprentice" cleric who is just learning the trait would not get nearly as many perfect sancts cast as the wise old teacher. But he gets lucky and gets one or 2 in. But the concern to all of this would be then that newbie clerics would not be as welcome or desired as the older multiremorters. There would need to be a fine balance achieved. -putting a delay on powerful healing spells? whats the point? If you throw off a 150-200+ hp heal how many times are you really going to have to do anything anyway for the next few rounds? Why waste the time and energy adding this delay in when that time can be spent on other changes.
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Post by siolfir on Mar 28, 2004 0:07:12 GMT -5
Uh, the point for him wasn't that sanc should double the effectiveness of heals - it was a statement that it already does. Think about it: you're taking 1/2 damage, but you're still getting full heals. Say you get 150hp on a heal. Without sanc, you can take 150 damage to get back to needing a heal again. But, when glowing, you can take an equivalent to 300 damage before needing a heal. Make sense now?
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Post by pixie on Mar 28, 2004 0:39:27 GMT -5
I am in total agreement that spells should take away melee atack for next round.
in addition, spells should have a 3 round delay like all other skills.
Mages/clerics should get delay decreases for high int/wis, same as thieves get for backstab lag reduction for high dex.
Con I THINK affects hp regen, not con AND some other stat, if even con, havent really noticed, but anyhow.. mages and clerics should get regen from EITHER wis or int, not both!
quake, fireblast, ice storm, meteor shower, nukes, should be !combat cast, can start combat with, but can NOT cast IN combat.
I like the idea of random sancs, I also think people who benefit from sanc should have a great chance to save vs all spells, INCLUDING helpful spells ie heal, restore, cure lsc, and armor etc.
Lastly, Mana should be affected by spells affect, it shuold take a lot more mystical power to heal for 200+ hp than 100+hp. maybe apply the %mod to mana drain as well as spell affect.
my 2 cents, again...
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Wamphryi
New Member
The blood is the Life.
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Post by Wamphryi on Mar 28, 2004 10:12:47 GMT -5
Ok my bad I read the heal wrong. Sorry. Thanks Siol Yeah this past remort I have done most (not exclusively) as grouped. The last what 6 though I did almost exclusively solo. Still the heal delay would do nothing in my opinion other then delay the fight a little longer and make me use a little extra mana. Now in your first post you said delay and the second no combat. (-- add delay to certain spells ie a more efficient heal spell has a rnd delay attached to it ::: As for the noaction rounds on a heal,)) The nocombat delay for heal would suck solo but depending on how long the delay would be yeah that would make soloing alot harder but still wouldnt absolutely kill it.
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Wamphryi
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The blood is the Life.
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Post by Wamphryi on Mar 28, 2004 10:25:13 GMT -5
I think one thing that would possibly open things up would be instead of overall tweaking clerics(or any class for that fact) is add classes. Maybe turn "cleric" into a pure healing class, get limited damage eq and almost no damage spells, but can heal and protect people out the ass. Have a more "druid" (ok its been years since I have actually picked up a d&d book so forgive me for just putting the names in I am just typing in name you can transfer around as necessary but you get the idea) be a hybrid, sort of like clerics of today but not quite as powerfull on the healing ability(example their heal wouldnt do 200+hp like a current 25wis cleric but also wouldnt do 110ish hp like a current paladin be more along the lines of like 160-180 maybe just to choose a number). Have a then say "blah" class thats more interested in getting the damage delt like earthquake/lbolt etc but still does heal just not as good, maybe their heals would be closer to the pal heals but not as small. like maybe 120-140.
Or as a different thought. Have a secondary remort class. IE I run cleric the whole way thru, now once being a cleric I can remort druid(but I cant remort druid from any other class I have to be a cleric to get it). Maybe have todays clerics become the druid class and have the cleric be more centered on ohhh just say healing? just a thought......... talk amongst yourselves........
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Post by pixie on Mar 29, 2004 0:30:09 GMT -5
Still the heal delay would do nothing in my opinion other then delay the fight a little longer and make me use a little extra mana. Now in your first post you said delay and the second no combat. (-- add delay to certain spells ie a more efficient heal spell has a rnd delay attached to it ::: As for the noaction rounds on a heal,)) The nocombat delay for heal would suck solo but depending on how long the delay would be yeah that would make soloing alot harder but still wouldnt absolutely kill it. 1. taking longer/more mana is the idea, translated, that makes it harder. 2. !combat on spells is good! backstab is !combat, circle is !tank, there are the most useful skills of thieves, so it is kinda standard, all other skills besides spells are 3 round, why not spells? any warrior skill kills 2x hit for 3 rounds, why should clerics/mages get dhit (melee/spell)? 3. Sucking solo = more grouping, never bad, imho
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Wamphryi
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The blood is the Life.
Posts: 31
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Post by Wamphryi on Mar 29, 2004 11:03:51 GMT -5
!combat on spells. Ok I for one don't even begin to agree with this. Clerics/mages are built for casting and not having as good fighting eq. Not all classes are built to stand there and go toe to toe with a mob like warriors. Why not then just remove cleric and mages completely and have paladins/jedis become the healers and sohei/evil jedi become the mages of the game. Ok so I for one can get some powerful hitting(can liq thru sanct at times when I get the dierolls to fall in my favor) on one of my clerics but hell thats one char who I have stacked and packed and put more eq then most have into it(phaser/doom crap/etc...) and thats if i dedicate all 18 slots to damage eq. But for the basic clerics who dont have alot of good or great eq then this !combat casting would just be more of a deterent imho to playing that class. Hell why not then turn mages/clerics into remort only classes like bards/rangers.
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Post by pixie on Mar 29, 2004 19:40:39 GMT -5
!combat on spells. Ok I for one don't even begin to agree with this. Clerics/mages are built for casting and not having as good fighting eq. Not all classes are built to stand there and go toe to toe with a mob like warriors. That is exactly a point i have tried to make dozens of times! They SHOULD NOT stand toe to toe, but they DO. My clerics can solo bigger mobs faster and easier than my warrior, king imagunakilu comes to mind, i can easily wipe the room with a c27+ with 0 remorts, definately CAN NOT with a w27 with 7 remorts. now i honestly use quake for the pests, then just straight dam and de on im and he drops. same applies to sp, but there i only use heals/sanc and my dam gear, which isnt over the top, but i still oblit thru glow so hmm... barring VAST limitations on casting rates/cost i see one solution: bat3d5+3+3 orcus 3d5+3 +3wis and all other cleric eq reduced the same, !c on might, porb, and most other dam eq. rainbows changed to +5 mana +1 dam or something would be cool too, or plain !cm on them too apply all to mages as well, doing 400+ on a wod is cool enough, doing another 40+dam in gear is overkill. focus on mana mana regen screw dam eq on both classes, or make it incredibly hard to come by items only damnations doom eq comes to mind on that...
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Wamphryi
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The blood is the Life.
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Post by Wamphryi on Mar 29, 2004 20:02:10 GMT -5
I agree with you on that pixie get rid of some of the damage gear for clerics. For example make mights !cleric, have there best light be a stellar. Have all >1dam eq sans quest eq and maybe one or 2 big items(like broach, possibly damnation, holdables) be !mage/cleric. I like the idea of changing the powerlvl on charms to. The 1dam plus some mana but make it worthwhile like 15mana. ;D
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Post by Arizhel on Mar 30, 2004 0:34:52 GMT -5
Blech, more pacifist clerics!
Mira Elderbrand would be displeased, and call down the might of Helm upon you.
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Post by pixie on Mar 30, 2004 1:12:53 GMT -5
Clerics should not be forced to be pacifists, but they should have to make some kind of lasting choice on weather o be battle cleric, or mana meanie. this decision should NOT be eq based, as then you have the option of running 2 sets. I think something along the lines of good vs evil jedi is great for clerics. I also think as it sits they are the easiest, crappiest most unbalanced uber class on the mud. ere to i hate them
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Tam
Full Member
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Post by Tam on Mar 30, 2004 17:59:25 GMT -5
Well, I was trying to stay away from the cleric topic. No luck.
It's been argued that clerics are the most unbalanced class. I'd like to offer a completely opposite view (specifically because I like to play the devil's advocate and like to see people get their noggins working). Perhaps clerics are the most balanced of all the classes. They can deal damage via spells/skills, they have decent gear to fight in, decent gear to regen in, they have non-combat spells/skills, and they have protective spells/skills. So is this wide variety balancing or not balancing? Are warriors more balanced because all they really do is hit stuff and disarm opponents who don't even have weapons?
Sure, clerics have unbalanced skills. Spending 20 mana for an area spell that has the potential that earthquake does seems quite insane. In addition, the fact that clerics have 3 spells that total -80 AC (unless I counted wrong) seems somewhat wrong.
Though, reflecting on it, other classes have these sorts of broken skills. As mentioned before, warriors completely neuter a mobs ability to hit with 1 swift disarm. Thieves sit around backstabbing all day to get themselves their last few levels to immort - strictly off of the xp from the skill, not even from the mob. Mages of course have word of suicide and thermonotsomedieval holocaust. I'm sure each of us can go on.
Damage Eq has always been an entertaining issue when it comes to balance. People attempt to use D&D to expand on the "pivotal role of damage eq" argument. Unfortunately, most characters sit happily with a 1d6 or 1d8 weapon in D&D. Sure, on Jedimud we have damage eq in every slot you can wear. Ironically, most classes still sit around a 10 damage differential between any other given class.
Finally the absolute most entertaining concept for me is the notion that just because a class can cast well should mean that it can't fight well. Noooo, it simply means that the creator of the game has to make sure the classes that focus specifically on fighting, fight better. Clerics are by far not warriors. With skills like weapons knowledge and disarm, I would have sooner run the old Zeus with my warrior than my cleric any day. He pops a glow potion and he's golden.
So theres some food to chomp on. I am of the camp who believes that its the skills that make a class and not the equipment. Holding a mallet doesnt make a guy a cleric any more than holding a holding a stabber makes a guy a thief. Quite honestly we need more skills. I want to eventually make a thief who's a cowardly cut-purse and a warrior who doesnt need a weapon to beat the tar out of someone.
-Tam
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Post by pixie on Mar 30, 2004 19:19:45 GMT -5
Eq does not make the character, ok it just helps, a LOT
My clerics who have 80+regen run quite a bit faster than my newbie squad characters with 0 regen, I would like to log in and time regen 100 mana at 80vs 0 regen, but i am sure you all have a good idea from deaths and regenning to get to corpse, vs eq regen.
sa eq helps there, a lot.
also tickle vs LIQ thru glow makes xp running a bit quicker.
Now the skills, like sanc and heal that make this possible, and the buffers, like armor, stone skin, vestment, aid, bless, etc make it even easier, yeah very helpful.
Point is simply this either eq or skills are fine, in and of themselves, when combined, you are unstopable.
do i have a problem with a 7 remort + character bieng able so solo any (not that they can now) mob in the mud? no!
I have a problem with 1 class out of all of em having that great of an advantage over the others.
Now when soheis were broken (mana channel/pets) EVERYONE jumped on them like a pack of wild doghs and killed petshops, and a bunch of other cool things. when mage squads dominated thanks to anyone could use gate thing, EVERYONE jumped on them and fixed that right quick.
You can just as easily argue that these players were just using their character to the best as the code would allow, which clerics do now. that does NOT make it right, balanced or fair.
--Life is not fair, anyone who says diferent is trying to sell you something--
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Post by Arizhel on Mar 30, 2004 20:18:50 GMT -5
Honestly, as far as clerics are concerned, life will probably never be fair. Clerics offer the absolute best healing spells in the game, which is far and away the single most useful thing in the realm.
Part of the solution here is to give some interesting and useful skills to other classes. The other part of it is to cut back on some of the "broken" parts of clerics, like the 20 mana, 25wis quakes.
I won't, however, lie to you and say that clerics won't always be a popular choice. They're a popular choice on every MUD I've ever seen, not to mention every roleplaying game I've ever been privy to. Healing is just that important.
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Post by pixie on Mar 31, 2004 0:34:18 GMT -5
I agree, healing is pivitol to all groups in the world of rpg's in general, an sio clerics will never go hungry in a game.
as such, taking away a goodly portion of their combat effectiveness will not hurt the class.
my .02
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Post by siolfir on Mar 31, 2004 0:47:21 GMT -5
Personally, I tend to agree with Tam in his argument that clerics are the most balanced class on the mud. They can solo as effectively as they group, and they have, minus fly+inspire, every single group-friendly spell that your average group is looking for. Sanc+heal+armor+stone skin+group recall+summon+calm...all at relatively low levels, and with some damage spells, to boot!
The question in my mind is not about neutering one class so much as finding ways to make the other classes better. Do clerics have some spells that are "overpowered"? Well, in comparison to mages, yes; dispel, cause critic, call lightning, and earthquake are all examples of damage spells that a cleric can cast that are drastically cheaper than a mage spell that would do equivalent damage. Earthquake, even without the 25 wis, costs -25- mana. Fireblast, the cheapest mage area effect, costs what, 60? Call lightning does as much damage as flamestrike, for 1/5th the mana - flamestrike was raised from 35 mana to 75 because it was doing approximately the same damage as slay.
Yet, the single thing that makes clerics so good at soloing isn't the damage they do, even at the cheap levels. It's the same thing that makes them valuable in groups, and the same thing that if tweaked too much will cause far more complaints about how stupid the admin is and how they're trying to run all the players off of the mud: the cleric's ability to buff up and heal players. Armor, 35ac. Stone skin, 30ac. Glow, half damage. Bless, +7 hitroll. Aid, +1dam +10hp. Heal, negating damage at about a 3.5:1 ratio of damage-to-mana. Clerics solo so well because they excel at keeping people alive, and they do it quite remarkably on themselves, when they can also get magical vestment (25ac, +2str), and a rather sick set of ac gear pushing them well past -100ac if they so choose. Clerics will always solo well as long as they are able to heal well.
Before you talk about a 3 round delay on heal, think of what you're saying: do -you- want to be the one to get killed because the cleric lost concentration on a heal, and had to wait 3 rounds to try again? Or because sanc went and you're going through half your hp per round fighting god statues? I know I certainly don't. And comparing it with the delay on backstab or other combat skills is sheer ignorance - those skills have no cost to limit the amount that they are used, and so the limit is applied through the delay: it's a control.
Throughout much of this discussion, the talk has been of clerics being far too powerful, so much so that they must be broken since they don't -have- to group and can still get experience quickly. So why is that wrong? And, for what it's worth...my warrior, even at 4 and 5 remorts, was still soloing an average in excess of 1.5m xp/hour, which went up to just under 3m at level 27: not records, admittedly, but numbers that I'll put against a young cleric any day. So it's not just clerics that can get experience quickly solo. Clerics just can kill bigger things. Well, if you don't mind dying a few times, a mage can (and does) kill things that your cleric would never stand a chance at. And with canned magic available, the limits are gone: I watched personally as a w30 soloed Drakken Ru, using only curative canned magic, while the c30 died after running out of WoD scrolls, in a quest I held.
The key is how people play, not what people can do. I disagree with the comparative cost of cleric and mage spells, that's why I remorted my almost-max-age 2-remort mage into cleric: I could do more damage with less mana as a cleric than a mage, and thus regen the mana back faster to keep going. With a few fixes on spell costs, I don't see a problem with clerics; I see a problem with the classes such as ninja, that have no real definitive skills that make them worthwhile as anything other than a bit part that gets hauled out only for eqgroups, or the thief which acts nothing like a thief and a great deal more like an assassin. There are classes that do need a lot of work. Cleric is not one of them: it's the goal that the other classes should be steered toward, that elusive class that is fun to play solo and useful and desired in a group as well.
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