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Grapple
Sept 21, 2008 20:15:02 GMT -5
Post by Tarbal on Sept 21, 2008 20:15:02 GMT -5
so...i am sure that there is a post somewhere discussing grapple....but i just had a thought and wanted to post it to see what kind of feedback i could get.
here is my thought....IF i am grappling with someone (RL) while someone else is swinging swords, bats, staffs, clubs, axes, or whatever at that person....isn't there a pretty good chance of me getting hit as well? i mean...think about it...i have my arms wrapped around this guy...fighting to hold him still...while someone else is trying to hit him with sharp implements of doom....i AM going to get hit.....
my point? i know a lot of people will want to kill me for this suggestion, but i really think that grapple is WAY overused for groups running eq and big mobs....if you do not have a big cleric or a big warrior....you cant run eq...so...in the interest of making groups more available to other classes....lets make grapple more painful.....
my suggestion? While you are grappling a mob, any other character who is hitting that mob will have a significant chance of doing damage to the grappler....maybe make it some kind of reflect thing so that the damage is reflected from the mob to the character grappling.....
anyways...that is just my thought for the night...go ahead and begin telling me how crazy that i am!
-rat
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Grapple
Sept 22, 2008 14:17:52 GMT -5
Post by Maranta on Sept 22, 2008 14:17:52 GMT -5
You ARE crazy! However those that know you also know there is always a method to your madness.
Frankly I have to agree but I can also offer an alternative thought. If you had suddenly grappled someone, greatly restricting both of you, your group might not keep attacking for fear of injuring you. Now at that point any kind of area attack would obviously hit both of you and it'd take nothing to swing each other into the path of another attacker. Of course certain classes could easily avoid this and others simply wouldn't give a damn and would swing away until someone was dead.
Regardless either way will not solve the grappling issue as far as I'm concerned. If the fights last longer, no one will care and grappling will continue. If the grappler(s) are repeatedly struck during the fight, it'll just force the cleric to get off his ass and pay attention. That or the tank will don a full hp/ac suit to negate as much damage as possible.
I really don't have any solutions though. When stun was "fixed", it was the direct cause of one of the greatest dropoffs in grouping in the history of the game. And that was when JediMUD wasn't recovering from massive stagnation and a greatly decreased playerbase. I'd suggest waiting for now until the change can be dealt with properly instead of some middle of the night nerfing with no notice and little announcement.
-Mar
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Grapple
Sept 22, 2008 16:39:19 GMT -5
Post by Tarbal on Sept 22, 2008 16:39:19 GMT -5
i think my biggest beef with grapple is the fact that it has taken all variety and most of the skill from groups! remember the days when an eq group consisted of (at minimum) C/W/N/B/R? each player had to play his part...and if any one screwed up....everyone was screwed! today, the only thing you have to be able to do is count to 4 (rounds) and hit enter (grapple)....unless you are the cleric....they have to do a little bit of work....but eq/quest groups just seem boring and very repititive to me now....or maybe i am just a little crazy and retarded.....
now....i do NOT want another of those 'fixes' that runs off half the playerbase....and i really am not sure of a good way to fix grapple without pissing off many players.....i think it would be a'kin to 'fixing' quake...which would prolly lead to open revolt and burning in the streets!!!
so...what do we do....for now...i guess we stick with the same ole C/W/W/W/W eq/quest groups....but i personally hope and pray for some variety in groups....
-rat
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Grapple
Sept 22, 2008 17:49:34 GMT -5
Post by Maranta on Sept 22, 2008 17:49:34 GMT -5
Those were the best groups of all. But it was the "fixing" of stun that killed them, drove ninjas into complete obscurity and practically led to the widespread creation of mage squads. JediMUD CANNOT handle another ill-conceived "fixing" without suffering massive, permanent damage.
Bah! As for quests, you already know the solution to that problem. Everyone does really... Its pretty damn easy actually, outside of random lag killings and scavenger runs. The question is whether or not people will actually ignore the b-i-t-c-h-ing and do it or just use the same cookie cutter routines.
-Mar
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eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Grapple
Sept 23, 2008 14:53:11 GMT -5
Post by eniac on Sept 23, 2008 14:53:11 GMT -5
I'm toying with lots of fixes here but I don't want a nerf that breaks the game so any good suggestions will be openly received.
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Grapple
Sept 23, 2008 20:16:56 GMT -5
Post by Tarbal on Sept 23, 2008 20:16:56 GMT -5
just to clarify....i am not suggesting that this is the most important thing to be fixed on the mud at the moment....so please, do NOT take away from more important projects to toy with this....
as far as other ideas....is there a committee or something discussing pros/cons of different 'fixes' for skills and such? or are we leaving everything up to the whim of eniac....not that i dont think he is fully capable...but i just think that we should open this up to the maximum extent possible...get a wide assortment of ideas and opinions....not just the views of a few individuals...i know that the game is not really a democracy...but if a fix is made that is not popular...then the only voice that players seem to have is to leave! that is NOT a good option imo...
having said that....once again this has became the maranta/tarbal mud board....me and ken bounce posts off of each other for days on end with an occassional cmoment from someone else....i am sure there are more that 2 or 3 people who read these posts....c'mon! chime in and let us hear what you are thinking....if you do not speak, your voice will not be heard!!!
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Grapple
Oct 8, 2008 12:35:16 GMT -5
Post by Mal on Oct 8, 2008 12:35:16 GMT -5
I like the "new" grapple. I like the "bug" that causes a warrior who has grappled in combat, to lose dhit for the rest of the combat. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find someone who can "... be able to do is count to 4 (rounds) and hit enter (grapple)" properly? Yes, back in the old days, but I am talking about now. I still think stun should be fixed, so it works again. I also think shield bash should work like grapple, or any other skill that can knock a mob down. Unconsciousness with bard? (a song I never use, I believe knocks mob on floor..)
This means: warriors lose dhit, so they are effectively single hit like every other class, 'stun' actually causes someone that round to do double damage on their swing, so, ninjas would be more useful in this case for damage AND ninjas don't lose combat round for using stun, unlike warriors who, not only lose their swing, they lose the swings of the tank when grappling.
Having shield bash, etc, would allow a different class to play backup 'grappler/stunner' which would be quite nice.
Now if you really wanted to get some changes going, a mage grappled can still cast magic, not his more powerful spells no, but if some spells can get through grapple - (not stun, shield bash etc) - how do we counter that new strength mobs have? Allow other classes to use countermagic - why can't we have a mage in a eq group or a paladin to dive to protect cleric for damaging spells.
The Ninja class has always been a dead, useless and horribly unfun class to play period. The fact that it truly died when stun was broken only more so shows that ninjas were JUST a requirement for eq groups, and not useful in any other way. The real issue there is that the Ninja class desperately needs to be revamped into a useful and fun class to play. Right now, Ninja's only main use is against a select few quest mobs (voids).
If you disagree with the above statement, fine, but I am sure almost everyone else would agree with me.
Aaron
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eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Grapple
Oct 8, 2008 12:53:40 GMT -5
Post by eniac on Oct 8, 2008 12:53:40 GMT -5
Re: Tarbal
No there is not a committee but I read these boards and they are where I get most of my direction.
Right now the biggest problem I see with grapple is that three warriors can do just about anything. With canned you don't need a cleric except for extreme cases.
I am wanting to encourage group diversity but and there are lots of things i've been throwing around such as random time in rounds the grapple last, negative consequences when a grapple fails against a mob with certain procedures or maybe the simplest nerf is as a movement penalty to grapple similar to shield charge.
Re: Mal' Yes I think counting rounds made the game a bit more player friendly but it also made the game pretty damn predictable.
What I am looking for here is a win win situation. A solution where warriors are still grappling but groups might choose to substitute out a warrior for a bard, ranger or ninja.
-E
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Grapple
Oct 8, 2008 13:10:54 GMT -5
Post by Mal on Oct 8, 2008 13:10:54 GMT -5
A failed grapple = immediately thrown out of room by a mob who can throw. Don't have a ninja? uh oh. Sounds like something an IMM would have fun watching.
Just a thought though, and I must reference other posts on this, eq grouping although not as hard as it was before, please keep in mind there are already a few players fed up with the load rates, and making it actually hard, may or may not be a good thing.
Currently, useful classes in an eq group are: Bard - slow, hopelessness, enrage, illusion, fly, inspire, blur, images Warrior - grapple, disarm, dhit, hp Ninja - block throw(?), stun (when fixed), disarm ? (been a while) Ranger - grapple, cure critic, fumble, skins Cleric - sanc, heal, stone skin, armor, aid, bless, regen, etc..
Aaron
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eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Grapple
Oct 8, 2008 16:29:50 GMT -5
Post by eniac on Oct 8, 2008 16:29:50 GMT -5
I'm not wanting to change the difficultly level I am really wanting to make groups more diverse give purpose to some classes that are pretty much dust to the wind to do that I really think grapple needs to be tweaked a little bit.
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Post by Mal on Oct 9, 2008 3:29:15 GMT -5
Classes that are not useful really: Paladin - lay on hands, protect cleric proc, semi-heal, semi-sanc Jedi - semi-heal if good Antipaladin - shield bash (if made to stun) Mage - curse? web? Sohei - disarm Thief - backstab, circle, lock pick Possible ideas: Counter Magic: This automatic spell will use some of the characters mana to reduce / eliminate the damage done from a mobs spell being cast, and could even damage the mob slightly. Suggested cost: 50 mana Usable by: Mage, Sohei Orb of Weakness: This spell will increase the damage done to a mob by 25%. Suggested cost: 80 mana. Usable by: Antipaladin Shield Bash: Changed similar to grapple. Usable by: Antipaladin : Someone suggested a song for bards that 'encouraged' mobs to show off their fancy equipment (increasing % chance of item to load) Suggested cost: 30 mana Usable by: Bard Trip: Blocks mobs from fleeing Usable by: Ninja Rescue: As per rescue in game Also usable by: Good Jedi .. its a start anyway Aaron
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Post by Tarbal on Oct 9, 2008 3:43:46 GMT -5
ya know...i gotta say that i really dont think eq groups were ever really 'hard'....they were just a good challenge...it took a group who had some mob knowledge and knew how to use the different classes together to overcome the procs on a particular mob...i really do not see how grapple/grapple/grapple/grapple/heal takes all that much skill or how it could possibly be a challenge....then again....maybe i am just crazy! (or retarded, which is entirely possible!)
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Grapple
Oct 9, 2008 12:29:39 GMT -5
Post by Mal on Oct 9, 2008 12:29:39 GMT -5
I agree Tarbal, it doesn't take a lot of challenge to just sit there grappling a mob to death, although surprisingly few people are competent enough to time their grapples or for that matter, pay attention to the screen instead of watching TV. Failing to time your grapples or failing to even grapple, tends to lead to very bad things.
Although, I'd like to see other classes become more useful in standard eq groups, it would be very nice to see new zones go in, where the mobs would have different procs, and strongly suggest using different classes to run them.
Aaron
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Grapple
Oct 9, 2008 13:17:17 GMT -5
Post by Tarbal on Oct 9, 2008 13:17:17 GMT -5
new zones would be nice....with some new mobs that make other classes more useful, however, if i understand how grapple currently works, we could load hundreds of procs on a mob, but grapple will continue to block them all! we need some alternative to grapple....imo....
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Grapple
Oct 9, 2008 13:52:09 GMT -5
Post by Mal on Oct 9, 2008 13:52:09 GMT -5
Sorry, I should have said a new flag would need to be introduced to make a mob resistant or immune to grapple.
I'd be interested to know how tough a mob, say Jupiter, would be if he had his purge flag removed, and was up against a group with a ninja to prevent throw, and nobody grappled him.
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Grapple
Oct 9, 2008 15:38:43 GMT -5
Post by Maranta on Oct 9, 2008 15:38:43 GMT -5
Unfortunately a lot of the problem comes down to class revisions... or more precisely, how they were stalled after only two classes. Everyone has kicked that dead horse past the point where even I want to take a few shots. However had they continued, there would undoubtably be more group worthy skills for the lesser used classes mentioned above.
As there aren't yet, the trend in mob creation seems to be with grapple in mind. More hp, far greater damrolls and dice, explode on death, etc. The sad thing is, thats all that can be done to make them more difficult until new procs are designed.
I for one miss the older groups and especially the far older groups with ninjas and circling warriors/thieves for added carnage. Still even the previous incarnations were fun most of the time until people started quietly slipping in more procs to add the ever growing 'challenge'. Hell try loading a philosopher's stone with 50+ people on, there's your damned challenge. Not any more of course but it sure was back then.
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Grey
New Member
Posts: 1
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Grapple
Oct 10, 2008 12:06:39 GMT -5
Post by Grey on Oct 10, 2008 12:06:39 GMT -5
I'd have to argue that the load rate on philo is lower now than it was a few years ago.. at least since Caglio got his fancy Jupes/smile proc. That makes it difficult (and annoying) in itself. .. I agree with Maranta. -G
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Grapple
Oct 27, 2008 10:43:31 GMT -5
Post by Arizhel on Oct 27, 2008 10:43:31 GMT -5
Trust me, I want to see class-rev start back up, too. We had some good ideas, but "people problems" cropped up, and necessitated tabling the project indefinitely. Meh. Honestly? Yes. As a designer of areas and quests, when I make mobs, I do take into account two things: mage squads and grapple. My large mobs for the last few holiday quests have been 100% resistant to magic. I simply don't want people squadding the mobs. It's a personal preference. Now... I experimented in this last one (Easter 08) with some super-huge mobs to mess with the groups and see what y'all could come up with, and while that was largely successful, I'll admit the mobs were a bit over the top. I'll be reeling that back for next time, worry not.
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eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Grapple
Oct 27, 2008 13:05:26 GMT -5
Post by eniac on Oct 27, 2008 13:05:26 GMT -5
Grapple will be seeing some changes rather soon.
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Grapple
Oct 28, 2008 12:37:14 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Oct 28, 2008 12:37:14 GMT -5
I find this discussion of game modification very interesting from a designer standpoint. When designing games, you find that a human playerbase response ALWAYS trumps AI every time due to the collective's ability to see several moves ahead, much like in chess. Though the programmer might be able to respond to the new paradigm in time, the human factor will tend to stay ahead of its AI counterpart over long sample periods.
This is the nature of game play.
The motivated JediMUD eq group player has evolved into a lethal fighting organism. If you are simply trying to find a way to wipe him out by throwing more powerful antibiotic formulas at him then I think the mission statement of the game should be revised.
I'm referring to the non-existent mission statement that implies that the game exists to entertain and challenge the text-mud gamer.
Instead of modifying existing PROCs on mobs, as has been done before, nerfing the balance and playability of the game, simply introduce new procs and mobs in new zones. We are prepared to do this as a playerbase. Several of us are ready to imp new zones if we felt that we would be courted.
The grapple chain has grown out of years of human experience and should not be discounted. It is the culmination of years of testing by the playerbase, and it works. The fact that grapple doesn't require movement is a bug that should be fixed. Having the cleric provide an additional service during melee is warranted, as well as having an eq group grappler consider mv regen or +dex eq as part of his pre-melee wardrobe.
You could vary the duration of grapple based on the grapplers levels and dex and food/water status. That would make a good deal of sense and would force group to be less brain dead about their process.
An exception grapple might cause a stun, which would be a sweet carrot. Another limiter might be that no more than two warriors could get close enough to the mob to grapple, introducing the oldest form of AD&D protocols, the battle order, and one that might prevent a third grappler from providing backups in some areas, like indoor room. Perhaps some mobs would be !grapple due to their location in corridors or small rooms. Outdoor grappling might be limited to three or four warriors.
In any case, the game designer should think about the fact that any given game system left to itself for a long period of time develops a sort of genesis, an evolution, if you will, that help guide the designer in an appropriate way when tuning.
If the playerbase has found an exploit, then sure, close it. In this case, the playerbase should be rewarded for finding the best solution to a challenge. The best way to direct this is to narrow the application of the solution. I think that melee location and fatigue would be great ways to approach this.
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eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Grapple
Oct 29, 2008 10:04:58 GMT -5
Post by eniac on Oct 29, 2008 10:04:58 GMT -5
I find this discussion of game modification very interesting from a designer standpoint. When designing games, you find that a human playerbase response ALWAYS trumps AI every time due to the collective's ability to see several moves ahead, much like in chess. Though the programmer might be able to respond to the new paradigm in time, the human factor will tend to stay ahead of its AI counterpart over long sample periods. This is the nature of game play. The motivated JediMUD eq group player has evolved into a lethal fighting organism. If you are simply trying to find a way to wipe him out by throwing more powerful antibiotic formulas at him then I think the mission statement of the game should be revised. I'm referring to the non-existent mission statement that implies that the game exists to entertain and challenge the text-mud gamer. Instead of modifying existing PROCs on mobs, as has been done before, nerfing the balance and playability of the game, simply introduce new procs and mobs in new zones. We are prepared to do this as a playerbase. Several of us are ready to imp new zones if we felt that we would be courted. The grapple chain has grown out of years of human experience and should not be discounted. It is the culmination of years of testing by the playerbase, and it works. The fact that grapple doesn't require movement is a bug that should be fixed. Having the cleric provide an additional service during melee is warranted, as well as having an eq group grappler consider mv regen or +dex eq as part of his pre-melee wardrobe. You could vary the duration of grapple based on the grapplers levels and dex and food/water status. That would make a good deal of sense and would force group to be less brain dead about their process. An exception grapple might cause a stun, which would be a sweet carrot. Another limiter might be that no more than two warriors could get close enough to the mob to grapple, introducing the oldest form of AD&D protocols, the battle order, and one that might prevent a third grappler from providing backups in some areas, like indoor room. Perhaps some mobs would be !grapple due to their location in corridors or small rooms. Outdoor grappling might be limited to three or four warriors. In any case, the game designer should think about the fact that any given game system left to itself for a long period of time develops a sort of genesis, an evolution, if you will, that help guide the designer in an appropriate way when tuning. If the playerbase has found an exploit, then sure, close it. In this case, the playerbase should be rewarded for finding the best solution to a challenge. The best way to direct this is to narrow the application of the solution. I think that melee location and fatigue would be great ways to approach this. What are you suggesting here? I did a lot of reading and never got to the point. -E
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Grapple
Oct 29, 2008 15:33:18 GMT -5
Post by osmium on Oct 29, 2008 15:33:18 GMT -5
Correct me if i miss anything Dank.
1. Fix the bug so grapple uses move points.
2. Vary the duration of grapple based on the grapplers levels and dex and food/water status.
3. Limit the number of possible grapplers based on various criteria. Room size, outdoors, mob size, etc.
4. Perhaps some mobs would be !grapple.
<Inserting my own point here. Grapple a tarask? Yeah, right. Like kittens grappling Warren Sapp. A slime monster? A mob covered in poison quills? Grapple a vampire? Better be wearing plate armor. <CHOMP>>
Think I got everything.
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Grapple
Oct 31, 2008 1:46:37 GMT -5
Post by Arizhel on Oct 31, 2008 1:46:37 GMT -5
Grapple a dragon?
Prepare to be roasted, then eaten. Whole. >.>
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Grapple
Oct 31, 2008 11:28:26 GMT -5
Post by ching on Oct 31, 2008 11:28:26 GMT -5
My take on Dank's point is that the players WILL figure out the best way to do things. If you change the way mobs react to player skills, or the way that mob procs work they will adapt. It is what players do (I know I do that.) Eg, Stun is replaced with Grapple for use in taking down tough mobs.
The other important point is. Jedimud should exist to be a fun place to play. Part of the fun is the challenge, but a challenge is not an almost impossible thing. The fixing of things should not be goaled to stop eq groups, but probably to make it so you needed more classes, or more people? In any case, never forget the ability to make it possible for mobiles to be run.
With the Unaffects Self mobile proc, Jupiter is VERY hard to do. Without a group of grapplers, I could only see him going down to a swarm of mages & soehi.
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Grapple
Nov 9, 2008 15:02:55 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Nov 9, 2008 15:02:55 GMT -5
Correct me if i miss anything Dank. 1. Fix the bug so grapple uses move points. 2. Vary the duration of grapple based on the grapplers levels and dex and food/water status. 3. Limit the number of possible grapplers based on various criteria. Room size, outdoors, mob size, etc. 4. Perhaps some mobs would be !grapple. <Inserting my own point here. Grapple a tarask? Yeah, right. Like kittens grappling Warren Sapp. A slime monster? A mob covered in poison quills? Grapple a vampire? Better be wearing plate armor. <CHOMP>> Think I got everything. Perfect condensation and analysis, Oz, (and Ching, too). I would love to see this sort of smart grapple revision instead of nerfing the grapple approach to nasty magic attack mobs.
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