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Post by Maranta on Mar 31, 2004 14:47:23 GMT -5
Well if you wanted to lure me into posting, this was the best way to do it. ;D So lets get this show on the road... For starters, apals are a wis class because of their deity who gives them all their magic, the same as clerics and their good aligned counterparts. Without it... they're just basic fighters who can do shield tricks. I tend to order their stats as str/con/wis but with the changes to regen, dex has moved up considerably. Apals don't seem to get much in the way of move regen and have a rather high movement cost just for walking around, let alone using their shield to attack. As for wisdom, since the antipaladin class doesn't get a damage bonus on their offensive spells like clerics do, I find myself ignoring them in favor of a few extra cure critics or renewing aura of darkness for a few more minutes. I'm not going to argue on the nature of the class, you summed it up pretty well with Chaotic or Lawful. Personally, I've always considered apals to be more like clerics, doing the will of their respective god/goddess but more with power than by preaching. Whatever works for you. Well lets see now, I can definately help you with your equipment questions Farbe. After 14 long remorts and countless changes to my gear, I can usually lend some helpful advice. Of course I won't bring a lot of quest/DOOM gear into the matter since its not common equipment. Most of what you stated is pretty accurate already but I can clear up a couple things. Moorish bracers work good for apal legwear, greaves of valour however are a bad choice with their -3 int. An abishai skirt isn't bad being +1 str but nothing remarkable either. If you want to get in to ac then its just the basic crimson greaves or silks/arcanes. Now neckwear is another slot with few choices, and most have side effects. Holeys are -1str which is the class' best attribute, demon talismans are +1str but thats it. Onyx necklaces from quests are +1dam but the average apal won't have them. That leaves torns and DOOM gear. I tried using torns for a remort... bad idea. Now on to the issue of weapons. Again not counting phasers and quest weapons, most apals have a choice between a thalosian war axe, a fiend's talon and the jewelled skull spike. Since the axe and talon have the same dice once enchanted, they're basically the same aside from restrictions and weight. Since the choices are 4d7 +2hr+2dr (unless you're really lucky and have a +stat weapon)and 8d3 +3dam +2str I opt for the spike. Of course you can bless a talon or axe to give it another +2hr which I did for my talon even if I only use it for 5 levels. Aside from those three... thats pretty much it for 'common' weapons. Since I don't want to spam everyone who reads this about each and every choice for each slot... at least at this time... Just ask if you want more info. ;D
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Post by Arizhel on Mar 31, 2004 22:40:18 GMT -5
In regard to eq: In my wanderings of the mortal realm, I've found that, of all the classes, Antipaladins can use the greatest amount of the gear that is recovered from Algodon's pyramid. Not sure if you were counting quest gear or not. In any case, the antipaladin has been defined by the class-rev team as a holy warrior. Yes, holy. He's the diametric opposition to the paladin -- they are mirror images of each other, if you want to be utterly basic about it. Heck, on some MUDs, paladin and antipaladin are the -same class-, with different spells and skills available given your alignment (much like our jedi class). To me, an antipaladin is definitely a lawful guy. He may not have any care for the local law, because he's above that, but the word of his deity is definitely something he strictly adheres to. The big difference is the code of conduct set forth by the Paladin/Antipaladin's deity. I mean, a typical Paladin would worship someone like Helm, who is a guardian god. Your antipaladin might worship Bhaal, who is the Lord of Murder! In any case, before you start arguing with me about the skills for both classes, I'll tell you that both classes are going to be overhauled again, though probably not completely. There are things I'd like to see done to each oen of them.
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Post by Arizhel on Mar 31, 2004 23:16:44 GMT -5
*nod* I'm not saying by any means that DOOM equipment should be considered part of the 'average' set of equipment. In fact, it should be a hell of a lot rarer than it is now, imho. I just figured the equipment was worth a mention.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 1, 2004 0:07:28 GMT -5
Quite true about DOOM gear. Antipaladins can use a vast majority of it, even if several of the items are a bad choice with the current regen system. eg stilts
I've played a few muds with both paladin classes and yes they usually are a perfect mirror of each other save a few differences in spells and skills. But I still like jedi best, especially the set of eq I've put so much time and effort into building.
Mainly I just want to see something done to make the class for group friendly. Being a hitter is all and good but how many classes can claim that... yup all of them given the right stats and equipment. While the shield skills are very well thought out, they have limits and drawbacks. The rather high movement costs the class faces drains movement points incredibly fast unless you're flying. Just moving from Midgaard to New Thalos takes off 3/4s of my 176 moves. I haven't found any other class that suffers such a massive drain. Anyways to get back to the main point, the class needs a skill that can really help a group out. Protection from Anarchy isn't a bad idea but because it only works on evil mobs... Its not much good since the majority of larger eq loading mobs are good aligned. I won't point out all the flaws or quirks in the current skill set... Hell I already did several times.
I've got plenty more to say and heaps of ideas(which were already submitted at earlier dates)but I'll save it for the next post.
Another two coppers for the pile with plenty more coming...
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Post by Maranta on Apr 5, 2004 22:45:17 GMT -5
So... anyone need some specific information while I'm bored?
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Post by Maranta on Apr 5, 2004 23:47:13 GMT -5
Actually Id love a brief description of the useful anti skills, along with associated costs, as well as a few zones I might not of thought of as places to solo. Sure thing. Well lets see... pound is quite useful, especially if you have pretty high strength as most apals do. WK is a given so no need to elaborate on that. Both shield bash and shield charge are potent if you meet the criteria. eg 'shield of darkness and evil' and 18/100 str but preferably 25/100 str. The added stun from shield charge makes it quite effective against a wide variety of opponents, if you have the moves to keep up a steady barrage. Oh and underhanded tactics of course, too bad its so random. Thats it for the skills... practice kick and bash if you want for lower levels. On to the spells... create food/water are givens, same with detect invis/align, pfg and sense life. Aside from a little extra damage in a pinch, I don't use the 'cause' spells very much due to the lack of the damage bonus. The three 'cure' spells are far more useful. Again I don't tend to use dispel good very often. Aura of protection... god how I hate that spell. The cost is extraordinary. The -20 manaregen will cripple any newbie apal's manaregen in a second. The only upside is it lasts for 4 ticks. Aura of darkness is decent enough. You can only get a max of 5hp back per hit but sometimes those extra hps can make a difference. Use sanctuary as soon as you get it, plain and simple. Bless weapon is ok for bevguls and newbie weapons or if you have a talon/t-axe that you don't want for another non-apal char. You can practice flamestrike if you want but I rarely if ever use it. 75 mana but still no damage bonus, save it for emergencies or showboating. Thats about it... practice protection from anarchy if you ever tank for an eq group... As for areas, I just run almost anything I can kill. Straight path, greza, bankers/bank guards, amber forest, combat fields, cheers, mahn-tor... Whatever you can get away with while not destroying your alignment. Anyways, happy hunting. I'm here if you have more questions...
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Post by siolfir on Apr 6, 2004 10:13:54 GMT -5
It uses up all of your mana, mostly through still having to cast cure spells on yourself (until aura of darkness) and the -20 manaregen, as mentioned before. It's sanc, with -10hp, -20manaregen tacked on, for 80 mana instead of 100. As for running out of moves all the time, I also hit this problem with my apal, whether I was using moves with shieldbash/shieldcharge or not. Admittedly, this was with a single-remort, age 25 character with a relatively low dex, so I had nothing working for me. I highly recommend getting fly, or you'll spend more time regenning for movement than anything else you do (unless you decide you like using aura of protection, then you'll sleep a lot for mana regen when it wears off). For "good-aligned" mobs to run experience with, you've named most of the zones to hit up solo (Cheers, Shire, Dwarven Kingdom, Camelot - though most of the worthwhile mobs are neutral, guild guards, hitting up the bank is fun also) and for an exp group, just stay out of the align fixes and the rooms in UW where there are groups of evil mobs (Furies, Harpies, Geyron + mutt, and Gorgons) and you'll still come out evil if you went in with a really low align. Straight Path is also good, and if you actually clear it out (by killing Allah and the angels) then your align goes down. I also attacked Puff every time she decided to tag along with my apal...at level 30 she pretty much dies every time, before WK you have to rely on shieldcharge to do enough damage to get her before your blind goes. As for Mahn-Tor...every single mob in there is good aligned, it's just that all the equipment is !good, so it's actually a great place to go if it didn't cost you all of your movement to get there.
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Post by siolfir on Apr 6, 2004 10:17:38 GMT -5
Oh, one last thing to add: once you hit level 21 you never have to sleep to regen hp again. Mana, sure. Movement, definately. But with aura of darkness up, hp are just a few sword strokes away - and all of a sudden, the little mobs in a zone become worth killing if you need to heal.
If you're flying, and have just enough mana regen to gain 165 mana in 4 ticks (sanc+aura of darkness) while fighting, your a24+ never needs to sleep again.
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Antessima
Junior Member
Lord of Ridicule
Posts: 74
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Post by Antessima on Apr 6, 2004 10:47:44 GMT -5
Quite true, siolfir. When I last ran mortal, I rarely, if ever, needed to stop and sleep for regen. Aura of darkness plus sanc and me trusty longsword kept me going quite steadily.
However, I also concur with the general feeling that apals (and paladins) are rather haltered by the easy-to-lose, hard-to-reacquire movement points. Though I can see such a problem as perhaps the class's primary deficiency to keep it from becoming all-powerful like cleric, it is nonetheless frustrating, especially when I choose to venture into the more difficult zones like the upper galaxy where being able to lay the smackdown a few more times on Ursa would be extremely helpful.
I realize I haven't posted any new thoughts necessarily, but hey, at least I can try and magnify the impact of everyone else's thoughts!
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Post by pixie on Apr 6, 2004 11:44:25 GMT -5
MY only tip to add is avoid valhalla with a newbie apal, the fido/janitor thing can be a pain, considering most mobs there will bansai you (valkries (sp) and sigurd). now I LOVE valhalla with quaking clerics, after a couple remorts to up the wis damage on it it cant be beat! But for most classes, by time the risk of catastrophic failure has passed, so has the use of the xp, IMHO.
On evil areas, you can fix align to unbelievably fast in the temple, that by time you clear most small areas and are ready to regen mana (i dont regen 164 in 4 tics) you can reall pop in and align in seconds, so dont fret!
Lastly, a potion runner can save you much regen time and nasty side effects on most sanc potions, use one! the run time on the potions, is so much less than the regen time for same effects makes it well worth my while.
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Post by siolfir on Apr 6, 2004 14:05:15 GMT -5
Bah, you only get blinded if you fail the save! Just make all your saving throws and you're golden! ;D
As for the blaurel vs ebon issue, it depends on how many remorts you have, and if you can use the strength. It doesn't matter what your move regen says it is, you will still probably stop more for move regen than anything else, and if you want to use stilts, feel free: the -dex with them couldn't hurt more than being a 25-yr old vs 130, and unless I was using shieldcharge a lot you can get by with only short rests, usually. I don't have a diadem or a blaurel, so my apal uses an ebon. Sure, the move regen is nice, but so is hitting harder on everything, and most of your combat skills do damage based on strength.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 6, 2004 14:09:52 GMT -5
Actually I'd use the blaurel if I were you. Unless you don't have the remorts to take advantage of the +2 strength. A set of star pendants helps the move regen nicely, now if only watches were apalable... But do yourself a favor and use glimms over the stilts. Just the -1 dex on my titanium shield kills my moveregen, the -6 dex on stilts will crush yours.
Oh I also have lists of leveling and regen eq if anyone cares. Just let me finish my coke so I can finally wake up. Damn cold made me oversleep.
No antis don't get remove blind, but they seem to be quite good at blinding/poisoning mobs. I left those out yesterday... guess I was too tired. As for sanc potions... hmm get the blood scrolls from the dweller in aerie(2 per load, limit of 5, junk the talisman)and oscar's red clay is decent. You might have to risk a few purple or black potions, blindness sure beats - 20manaregen.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 6, 2004 14:18:58 GMT -5
I think they're just ninja/thiefable. A set of druid rings are always nice if you have any or can get a pair.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 6, 2004 14:24:36 GMT -5
Whatever works for ya man. Was just trying to help...
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Post by pixie on Apr 6, 2004 14:52:25 GMT -5
carved wooden rings, same as ybone, ml 5, look in mahn tor
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Post by siolfir on Apr 6, 2004 15:27:39 GMT -5
While you're in Mahn Tor, pick up a golden helm and visor (cheaper rent/better ac than strat) and marble bracelets (1 con without the -2dam of opals) for level eq. If you're ambitious, you can also replace rook with minotaur chain mail (1str 1con 45ac) at level 5 - it's actually decent for something other than levelling, because of the high ac value and +str which usually means +dam for apals. I wouldn't really recommend the carved wooden unless you just really hate having ybones: yes, they're 1hr 1dam !good, but they have a minlevel and while it's not all that much a difference, they're half the ac of ybones, too! But until you get doomcrap (causes) or questcrap (blood, druid), the ybones are as good as it gets.
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Post by siolfir on Apr 6, 2004 15:39:17 GMT -5
Bah, was confusing myself - the chainmail is minlevel 3, it's the plate that's 5, so you only have to have rook armor for levels 1 and 2. And the other stuff I mentioned doesn't have a minlevel, the only restriction is !good.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 6, 2004 19:07:08 GMT -5
Scarlets aren't apalable and dasein has an ml of 6 the last time I bothered to look. Still its nice being able to shrink down your list of leveling gear as soon as possible. Too bad small rings/ethics are !evil.
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Post by DaHart85 on Apr 7, 2004 15:37:01 GMT -5
All I got to say is polished turbonium rings. Same ring, different name basically. If you are talking adding damage, you are nuts. I know Maranta is fairly decked, out but he pipehits like all hell broke loose. Anti-paladins have more than enough damage possible. I think an equivalent ring with a cooler name would be a good idea. Having some of the cool items and a finger ring is kinda crummy looking. Some people care about sexiness of eq. :-)
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farbekrieg
Junior Member
"CCChha cha cha changes, time to change the oil... dont wanna be an oily man.
Posts: 88
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Post by farbekrieg on Mar 24, 2007 14:42:30 GMT -5
I just finished a remort as anti 18/73 14 14 12 14 14 as a 93 yo with mediocre equipment, just my comment on the subject.
candle 2x ybone 2x holeys dwings mandalore crimson arms legs visor fbones spike sap and a borrowed shield of evil and darkness/enchanged/tower shield mohicans swordsmens holdable
it was boring and not terribly difficult, easier then a thief but not so nice as a cleric
desirability in groups seemed to be lower then cleric warrior and paladin. But groups are what they are
I think pals have a definite advantage over antis in the following areas.
1. PFG.... most of the mud particularly xp mobs are either evil and aggro or good and non aggro, few are the good and aggro mobs.
2. Alignment as stated above most xp mobs (not all) are evil aligned and paladins after lvl 17 get alignment free restriction, and later get a prayer to fix the entire groups alignment.
First I feel as an evil class, you are more likely to be alignment unrestricted on killing as long as it serves you, where selfless paladins get no alignment hit for killing citizens to see if they have a few extra coins, an antipal in the same situation gets a serious hit if they kill a dervish.
I am not saying antis should get a free pass on alignment but an alignment system similar to jedis might be a good idea, or a spell line that has an alignment shift attached to it might be a very good idea.
As a spell line i like the idea of life taps.
siphon Soul, Drain Soul, Devour Soul, Soultap or something it deals a cause light ser critic amount of damage and restores a cure light serious critic amount and has a negative alignment shift and receives a wisdom bonus on both damage and healing.
3. Valor WTF? Pallies get a healing bonus skill and a damage bonus skill?
4. Live by the Sword. Ok paladins get this too, a damage bonus for a specific type, how about a Die by the Sword for antis, this would be a dex or str based skill that allows for a vorpal attack against a mob of same level of the anti or less that will decapitate the victim.
Basically i see this as an experience helper as the max mob level would be 30 and i dont recall any gear mobs being less, and remove the possibility against sanct mobs as well.
5. Cities as Xp zones, out side of mahn tor and dwarven area the majority of zones are nuetral or evil, where underhanded tactics dont help much.
I have never been a huge fan of xping inside cities as it lowers the risk of running back to a corpse, albeit bots and some unscrupulous players might even that up im not sure. I suppose this is more of builder related issue. Just something I thought of commenting on. Or some other possibilities (like sanct maybe?)
Perhaps a damage shield line.
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Post by Maranta on Mar 24, 2007 20:26:54 GMT -5
Alright I can help yet again. Not gonna hand over my memoirs or anything as those I'm still writing and will have a special place but I can offer a few tidbits of useful advice for any beginning to veteran apal that won't require my massive stack of eq.
Group placement skills are absolutely nothing. Either get cozy with regularly running clerics or get ready to solo. If you're stuck solo, grab some canned sancs as aura of protection is murder and they're just good to have.
Mahn-tor is an alright zone for the first few remorts but its slower going without a decent damroll. Run the straight path, the amusement park(attendants are verry nice, blind+curse if your hp is low), the chess board(including the black pieces), sesame street is good for a quick boost and I always liked arden forest. gerard/julian/fudd/unicorn are fine exp and gold and you can wail on the hunters while waiting for repop. Other mid-level zones are a given.
You're not always going to get benefits from underhanded tactics. Why it only works on good mobs, no idea. Even so, don't hesistate to run mainly neutral or evil areas. I've ripped the underworld apart when nothing else was up. Some of the evil mobs only cost you 20 or so alignment and the neutrals are sitting ducks.
Theres already been a heap of new spells and skills suggested, more than a few by yours truly, but we're stuck with what we've got right now. The trick is working around them or just plowing through. If however this hasn't been enough, theres a few people familiar with the class still playing and I'm always happy to help.
-Maranta
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Post by skeptic on Mar 25, 2007 14:07:33 GMT -5
I'd like to put my two cents in on this thread as well. I know many people think paladins and antis should be polar opposites in everything they do. There are other people that think they should be the same, the difference is the deity they worship and if this were the case the Implementors would have been better off only making one paladin class. This leaves me to a third group of people that want to see the two classes different fighting for two opposite causes. When i first started anti-paladin i found myself thinking man paladins get this we should have this and was very green with envy of the Paladins skills and spells. Now after 5 remorts into Skeptic I really enjoy the difference of Apals, but it doesn't mean that the class is lacking from others. Here is how I see it: Anti paladins should be held to a higher regard for alignment. An antis alignment should be one of the challenges of serving a deity. If he or she wavers their deity will punish them, like wise by keeping his or her alignment the deity will reward the anti paladin with bonuses. The bonuses could be anything more xp,damage,damage resistance the possibilities are endless. Likewise the punishment could be just as bad. My next beef with anti paladins. There seems to be some confusion and silliness with skills and spells. 1) our deity grants to the ability to, Bless Weapon, AoD, God Strength, and Aura of Pooh.. yet our deity gives us no help on any of the causes, cures or any other spells. 2) Whats the point of Bless weapon, 2 extra hit roll? and add more restrictions to a weapon. Give anti-paladins a bonus if their weapon has been blessed by their deity. 3) Judgment of the gods needs a message, and should be a way for apals to initiate combat against evil-doers and not suffer an alignment penalty or possibly change the alignment of the evil-doer to good. 4) Finally my biggest beef with Apals. Why do my skills depend on Movement a Dex based stat when my primaries are str, wis, con
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Post by Maranta on Mar 25, 2007 17:36:50 GMT -5
Part of this comes back to the argument first established when paladins were given spirituality. One CIMP stated the reason was (more or less) 'Because paladins are paragons of virtue and anti-paladins are not.' Which translates roughly to: good can't possibly be corrupted yet evil will be redeemed. Also you need to keep in mind things on JediMud are never logical. If they were, paladins would never attack mobs of good alignment and antipaladins would kill anything in their path if commanded to by their god/goddess. As for those bonuses, yeah that makes little sense. Of course clerics, paladins and antipaladins all receive their powers through their respective gods, so the strength of the spells shouldn't differ. What does differ is clerics have access to more advanced magic from not having their time split between swordplay and prayer. Thats where the bonus should come into effect imho but it doesn't. Also in further answer to your beefs, 2) yeah bless weapon is nothing fancy. a lot has been suggested and noted but being coder-less yet again, we're stuck. Maybe someday it'll be changed but for now just bless your Bevgul and maybe your lower level weapons if you don't juggle them between chars. 3)Already noted, by me the very first day the spell went in. The lack of alignment loss would be a good change actually but it shouldn't change the mobs to good. A goblin for instance isn't about to suddenly stop killing travelers or do charitable acts, thats more of a paladin spell at that point. 4)Shield skills are based on moves because you're attempting to crush someone's skull by swinging a very heavy shield at their head or completely tackling them by charging with your shield. Also movement isn't dex based, move_regen is while the amount of damage being dealt is related to your shield and your most primary stat, strength. Hope that cleared up a few things.
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Post by skeptic on Mar 25, 2007 19:31:25 GMT -5
4)Shield skills are based on moves because you're attempting to crush someone's skull by swinging a very heavy shield at their head or completely tackling them by charging with your shield. Also movement isn't dex based, move_regen is while the amount of damage being dealt is related to your shield and your most primary stat, strength. I thought dex had something to do with the number of mvs per level. Apparently i'm wrong.
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Post by Maranta on Mar 25, 2007 23:39:33 GMT -5
Unless you were foolish enough to keep one of those 7-9 dex rerolls that apals are famous for, you'll still get 1-3 moves per level. Heck I kept logs of levels from back when apals were first revised and we didn't even get the Shield of Darkness and Evil til months afterwards so I was still walking around in stilts, tshield, etc. Never noticed a differences in gains, just -dex is murder on apal move_regen.
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