In game equipment updates AND reasons why

[ching]

OK. I have no idea if this can be acted upon. However I would like to see the ideas on which equipment to update. How (like an in game quest!) and why (game balance reasons.)

Example of in game adjustments already made, the Iron sleeves are again cleric usable, and are now +dex (used to be -dex.) This is a fix to Cogitasne's "fix" put in so that only DOOM arm gear was cleric +damage (he did that without consulting the rest of the team.) This +dex change also made them very warrior friendly.

My suggestion. Modify Quagar's Hat of the Strategist from being an "AC-apply"-5 (10 AC worse) to an "AC-Apply" 5 (10 AC better.) *roll playing reason* After all if the hat improves your ability to think of (and in?) war (combat) your AC should improve not get worse. It is well known that the military knows education and an improved mind only improve a warrior's overall (combat) effectiveness. *Game ballance reason* This will make people chosing stats over damage a more reasonable choice.

Your turn. Be specific, I will just delete entries without a reason.

[Simba]

Reasons to stimulate the mud so people can use more eq and they will hopefully run these items/areas in the future.

Thunderstone of ils should have its class rests changed to make it once again soheiable and !ranger. This is a casting item and since sohei is our warrior/mage they should have access to it before a ranger. Neutral rangers have phearts, holeys, & skins. A neutral sohei only has holeys.

Firestone the damage dex light should be changed to ml10 !mc. As of right now they are bard sohei only...one not many sohei play and bards are mored worried about str than dex. This should open the choices up for other classes to be able to choose between stat, hr, and mana. Lowering the ml will make it a lil bit more useful as well.

Stellar Fragment should be changed to !twn as well. Especially if the firestone gets changed. There should be no reason for non mana user classes to use this light since they have access to a variety of others.

A pair of clawed gauntlets- a nice change would be to make them +1dam +1dex even though the desc says to increase your str we already have lfs for that it would be nice for another choice make them !mc and lower the load rate some.

Summoner's Charm & Diabolist Pendants please lower the penalty of -3wis to -1wis the -3wis was fine back before the stat change but is now making these once proud items a joke. With that put the chalk back on the floor and move the mob that was added. (sorry vague because I didn't want to quest spoil)

I'm sure I will add more as I think of them, but it's a nice start.

[Mal]

What: Make star pendant rangerable and add +10 moves to it.
Reason: Rangers need move regen / moves for skinning, Paladins (rarely) regen their moves compared to the need for mana and/or hp. Antipaladins are in a similar situation - in this case, I'd be more interested in +1dam +mv regen neckwear to be practical.

What: Puff Hide Girth to -1str instead of -2str
Reason: Since -2str means -2str but +2str can mean +1str (for those with over 18/00 strength) this results in a double whammy. I think it would be fair to reduce it down to -1str. This still leaves the questers belt highly desirable.

What: holdables, make enchantable holdables very class specific instead of having stones and rocks which can be used by all classes.
Reason: This would greatly increase the value of quest holdables.

What: Topaz Bracelet - add 'something' to them to make them slightly valuable or have an edge for different play styles (maybe simply +hp, mana, moves, regen, better ac..)
Reason: These bracelets have greatly decreased in value with the introduction of new bracelets into the game.

What: blood red broach, make +1int
Reason: Its tough to load, and considering clerics get bkm with no effort - mages are completely shafted in this respect. Mages should have much more mana, and hit max int easier. For ultra high mana, use summoner charms and such, but you lose the int. So it leaves options open for a mage.

Aaron

[Maranta]

Mal, FYI rangers already have access to 10 move_regen neckwear in the 'roughly polished garnet' item that loads in-game. As do both paladins and apals unless they prefer star pendants.

Though I certainly do agree that more than a few move_regen items could do with some moves added to them or a few more larger +moves items that don't conflict with the more essential move_regen items could be created specifically with R/A/P in mind.

[ching]

I would really like to see more 'specific' reasons for these changes than 'it would be nice.'

[Mal]

I disagree with the strategist hat for the following reasons:
1. it is a hat, not a helmet
2. hats fall down infront of peoples eyes, and in combat could require quite a bit of 'holding' of the hat to not have it fall off
3. The type of strategy the hat is refering to in my opinion is having an evening pouring over maps, terrain, etc. allowing you to place your pieces at their best. This is different type of strategy then what fighter instincts / training would teach you.
4. int/wis does not affect ac in game
5. clerics are the most overpowered class in the game, this only would make them stronger
6. what about purple? paisley (hey look, there _was_ a minor hole in cleric eq, so they patched that up quick with new gear!)

I got an idea, the average or even above average cleric, heck all but the exceptional clerics were NOT strategists, so the strategist hat should be made !cleric. The paisley should also made !cleric for game balance reasons.

Aaron

[Mal]

I am afraid the 'be specific' portion of your request is unjustified.

If you look at the other side of the table - instead of telling me WHY I should be able to change this item, tell me WHY item is the way it is.

For instance, a ring is a ring which is a ring. Any class can wear a ring, any class can wear any necklace, any class can wear any armor (with strength constraints) although a male warrior running around in a purple flowered skirt would be thrown out of their guild, here if the skirt has better stats then the black spiked plate leggings of annihilation, players will prance around wearing the flowered skirt proudly.

So... tell me why my bard can't use BO rings? MoH? Fbones? Auburns? Stabber? Spike? The list goes on.

The answer? There is no 'specific' reason. Just game balancing, game play, etc. I appreciate your idea here, and I respect that you are one of the more active visible admins, I have to point out that I disagree with this method of garnishing ideas, and side with just listing equipment, stats, with reasons based on 'game play, game balance'.

The only 'reasonable' class restriction is based on weapons, a cleric isn't supposed to pierce, a bard might not have proper training to wield a nunchaku, etc. A mage can run around in the best warriors armor, but when I say run a mean walk, and obviously won't be casting any spells nor be able to cast spells most spells while dual wielding long swords.

Aaron

[ching]

I wanted "reasons" to possibly work up mini quests around the equipment changes.
For example, a Roman invasion/uprising, and at the end of that the Jade pendant again loads on the master scheduler (reward/swag/booty) and the Emperor upgrades his Moorish to be +dex (not -dex.) We could even add a few new rooms to Rome, with a garrison, etc.

There are several different ideas on what is a good game balance. But I like the discussion on the strat hat game balance.

[Simba]

First of all...do we need an ingame quest to change something like class rests on tstones or dex moorish bracers? We didn't need one to change back iron sleeves, btw when is it going to become bardable again? If you just want a story line to put in the news I can surely come up with something. Yeah it sounds exciting in theory I would rather see the tlaurel/blaurel thread come back in or something along the line of that every couple months...if that is the idea then I will add for bigger items. I would rather see that old statue area come in before adding a couple rooms for moorish. As for balance and game eq with ideas of what evil should be and what good should be, etc...how about just adding eq and letting the player decide how they want to eq their char? Some people like a buttload of dam on their chars, some go with ac, some go with +hps, some go with regen, and anybody with remorts go with stats. Let us make our own eqset so we don't "look like cookie cutters." More eq is better to stimulate the mud...means people will run more and different eq, try new classes and new alignments. People will *gasp* explore! Make some of the old eq useful again.

[Simba]

On the stimulate the mud note...parliament has some nice leveling eq but because of the min level and max level it sucks and not worth running. I suggest taking both off so people will run the zone more often.

[Rox]

I agree with Simba that it would definitely be a plus if we can remove the min/max levels for eq in Parliament.

It's an interesting zone with a lot of interesting mobs and I've only ran there a few times fearing the number of dts in there which are many but changing the stats on the items would be a big incentive to run the zone with a bunch of level 19s and below.

May possibly lower the load rate if it helps game balance.

[Mal]

1. I think the best thing that could happen eq-wise is increasing the number of stats an item can have from 2 to 4. This would fix the 'cookie-cutter' eq'd characters as they are now.

2. An item should be allowed to make it vary in stats everytime it loads. For example, a certain neckwear that is +1dam +5hp by default, but you could be lucky enough to get a +1dam +8hp or unlucky to get the +1dam +2hp version.

3. Items should have +skill / +spell attributes which increase those skills/spells up stronger. Better grappling, better healing, better word of death.

Instead of upgrading mobs to handle these changes, new zones should be made to more difficult that load equipment with these new changes from previous points.

Aaron

[Tarbal]

4 stats per item....hmmm....would add a LOT of flexibility to eq....but i SERIOUSLY doubt that it will ever happen.....you can add some extra stuff to eq by using perma-spells though....but they are difficult to get approved on most decent items....

mobs loading different versions of the same item would be easy to do....it is all up to zone builder to figure out how to make it work...but it is not hard.....

as to the skill/spell idea.....isnt that what happens when you increase dex/wix/int (based on what spell/skill/class)?

[gonfalon]

Since the modification to how player statistics work, some items do appear to be less desirable. Summoner’s Charms and Diabolist Pendants are a good example of this. They were written back in the old days, when having the bonuses on your gear balanced with the occasional drawback was normal. It made sense. It kept things in balance. You could get all that bonus mana, but you paid a steep price for it. If you wanted to be omnipotent, all you had to do was sign over your firstborn. Figuratively.

Should someone go through and trump up thinly veiled justifications to remove all of the nasty drawbacks and quirks from every decent piece of equipment in the game? What would be the point? Does it add anything to the game to wander around randomly changing the properties of the items people can use? JediMUD is an old game with a solid (but pretty damned small) cadre of long-time players. Would it add anything to their experience to arbitrarily change the statistics of the items they have come to know and love over the years? Somehow, I doubt it. This is a band-aid. It won’t work.

When I started playing Jedi (many an age ago) I heard about the game through word of mouth from a neighbor in my dorm. That’s what the place lacks now. Changing around the odd bit of equipment here and there is not going to do anything to resuscitate the game from its current dismal ebb. Something major needs to be changed to bring back that buzz. The game needs its appeal broadened to attract fresh blood. There was a time when there were more _active_ JediMUD players in Allen Hall at the UIUC than the place has now. And I mean total.

Here’s some avenues that could be explored. Obviously, anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt (because I’m obviously cracked). I don’t even like some of these, but they’re ideas that might have some sort of impact.

1. Bring back multi-playing. Let people have 2 or 3 characters online at a time. Jedi had a large, social group of players once. Letting them have two bodies on at once did not really stop them from grouping, either (although I was frequently teased when I attacked things with my cleric instead of my warrior and got him killed).

2. Meaningful class revision. Carry through on it. Make the classes substantially different. Each class should have something to make it special. Encourage people to do something with their time other than play a cleric/warrior with 12 remorts.

3. Add some challenge to the game. Tweak the base combat code to make it substantially harder to hit monsters more than 5 levels higher than your current level or something. The whole concept of THAC0 is lame.

4. Review the world and give it some real coherence. The map is a mess. The area around New Thalos is a traffic jam of contradictory, overlapping zones. Get someone to write a few more connecting zones with nothing of value in them (like the Haon-Dor forest around Midgaard) and spread things out.

5. Review armor and how it works. I always thought AC should do something useful, and now it does. The AC change is structured very oddly though, since it’s based on that whole THAC0 thing. Heavy platemail should not make it harder to hit a person, it should absorb damage. Put in a sliding scale and have it knock off 1 damage per hit at this AC, 2 at that, 3 or the next, and so on. And then go through and make cloth armor suck so clerics and mages take damage when things hit them.

6. I don’t like the remort/stats thing. Does it encourage new players to join a game when the older ones have a huge advantage over them that they cannot realistically overcome. Make characters die of old age. Force people to recycle and play if they want to play. You could give them the option of resetting their age to 18 as a really expensive remort option.

7. Bring back rent. Some people get a thrill from the whole trade thing. I don’t really understand it, but they do. Gold used to give even a new player some sort of leverage they could use to trade for better stuff. Jedi has always been a haven for hoarders, but letting people cryo out 30 items two or three times on the gold they glean from a dead message bot has got to be making that worse. There was a time when auctions were competitive and even exciting.

8. Damage types. Physical by default, but add in others like ice, fire, poison, and magic. Then put in some new items that give players some real resistance and/or damage mitigation to those damage types. You could even subdivide physical damage into piercing, cutting, and crushing for more variety.

9. Recruit/enlist more people to help do things. The wizlist is empty. Even if every person on the list from Avatar on up were active (and they aren’t) there are not enough physical hands there to get anything really fun accomplished. Working OLC would be nice (though not a necessity for some who like to build). It would let you harness eager builders and throw them right into approved projects while they still want to help out. Let them cut their teeth and learn the basics writing mini zones to expand the skeleton of the game. Yes, a few zones will fall through… but that always happens anyway. At least give people the illusion they could make God this decade if they were diligent and helpful.

10. Consider consolidating everyone into one hometown. How many people really use NT or SB right now? At least make Midgaard the default for new players when they create.

11. Listen to people. Actively engage them. It’s nice to see Ching posting on here with some ideas, but half the time it feels like he’s on here muttering to himself in a corner. Was he the model for the "spam" social? Talk about some of the things you plan to add to the game in the next month, six months, or a year. Let people know you have a plan and some sort of (fingers crossed) timeline to finish things.

12. Code some more quirks into the top end mobs out there. The variety of procedures they have on them is fairly small. That gives them a real cookie-cutter quality. Maybe make one go berserk on “armies” as small as 2 people. Maybe another one could actually absorb incoming spells and use the energy to trigger a heal? Give a couple some dirty fighting tricks, like the whole kicking dirt thing to blind people. Have some trade to random attackers in a party to mess with the whole tank concept. There are lots of possibilities.

13. Put some information back into the helpfiles. I’m still not sure the logic in removing any and all references to how much damage people’s spells do. Some people like to know this stuff. At the very least they can make informed decisions about what spells to use then. Is it better to cast 2 fireballs or 3 lightning bolts? Why should that be arcane, privileged information?

There, a lucky 13 things that could be tried to bring more warm bodies onto the game. Some of them are pretty time-consuming. Some of them are a little less so. And yes, I realize that a few of them will get people’s backs up because they were things that were deliberately removed. Everyone makes mistakes… but it is just plain silly to leave them in place if they hurt the game out of simple, stubborn pride.

Are you going to make people mad by changing things around? Yes, probably. You might even lose a person or two. But if you can bring back the feeling that the game is _alive_ you will gain more people than you lose. Something has to be done, and soon, or there won’t be anyone left. The time is long past for band-aids.

As for me… I’m going to Disneyworld! Have fun storming the castle!

Gonfalon.

[Simba]

Some are good suggestions and some scare me gonfalon, but maybe you should post that on Eniac's idea & changes thread. As we know gods are limited in their power. The eq is 8years overdue to be examined and hopefully Ching does get some changed. If it's only in his power to apply a band-aid hopefully that is a start.

So back to the thread...scarlet bracelets ml should be dropped to 0 for more options of leveling gear.

Here is a radical idea how about bringing back Zone of the month and tying any eq updates or additions to it. That would be a nice tie-in and can last for like 2 years if not more depending on what eq was updated.

more to come as I find and think of them...

[Sherkan]

The magical vestment spell on a Mickey Mouse Sweatshirt lowers AC by 10 which is less than the equivalent cleric spell which lowers AC by 25. The odd person might wear this shirt if the ac was improved.

[ching]

Feb 19, 2009 15:27:09 GMT -5 Sherkan said:

The magical vestment spell on a Mickey Mouse Sweatshirt lowers AC by 10 which is less than the equivalent cleric spell which lowers AC by 25. The odd person might wear this shirt if the ac was improved.

If a cleric wore the shirt, you would get the 25AC, just like the vestment in a canned magic item (like the red clay jar.) The same thing happens with an armor potion/device. IF a cleric uses it, they get the full cleric benefits. If not cleric, then your class applies (paladin more but not as much as a cleric, the rest less.)

And please keep this to the thread. Just equipment changes.

[Simba]

How about coral bracelets fitting the zone they are in and make them mage & sohei able? it makes no sense for a mage master to load an item that isn't mageable or soheiable.

Another item that should be changed is kimono to make it soheiable. if anything it should be soheiable first. for those straight up d&d people this is an oriental adventures item so an oriental adventures class should be able to wear. as for jedi..well it would be another +int item a sohei can wear. it would also be a good item for evil jedi.

Vulcan clericable? it isn't an edged weapon so why is it not? This is cleric mud btw. It's much easier to run a talon or stabber than a Vulcan anyways for the classes that can use it. It's laughable that it is jedable it's the same as a Lightning bolt being usable by an apal.

Damnation...lets make two one +1wis & 1 +1int so this item is top of the line again. For how hard they are to get they should be something a lil more specical then just 1 ml lower than a charm. They are basically a status symbol make them usable as well. This would make them very desirable for people leveling lots of different remort classes.

There I said it! I might be crazy but I think those would be changes for the better.

[Simba]

If not change summoners or diabolist how about at least changing Akinra to -1wis or -1int. This is a crash load only item and we have summoners and diabolist which are +30mana -2wis instead of the -3wis of the akinra. Another item that has been over looked since the stat changes like many many others.

Parliament has some nice gear in it but items having both min level & max level makes it completely pointless to run. get rid of one or the other (or even both) to make that equip usable. Hell people might even run the zone.

[Simba]

Change supple leather boots to +1dam !rests it would make a nice replacement for fuzzy slippers or maybe just tjms only to help out the classes that don't have +1dam footwear for the different aligns. I threw in sohei just for fun.

[Simba]

ok so talking with an old player that disappeared and now has come back made me think since Kailyn's statue as been upgrated how about upgrading celtic cross to match? celtic cross has been obsolite for years so lets make it viable again. my suggestion is drop the load rate and make it +1dam ac9 ml20. Or maybe Kailyn can have a quest for ideas and the one she likes...the winner gets the first one free.

[aelmme]

I know that this discussion is 4 1/2 years stale, but I didn't see anything in here that addressed what I think is the most important thing to address *before* we make updates to existing equipment. Each class has its own primary stats--that is, the stats which have the most effect on that class's skills and spells. I think that equipment updates make more sense if we adjust the stat bonus system such that having a high score in each particular stat has a consistent and noticeable benefit across every class. Take DEX, for instance: any class having high/exceptional DEX should see decreases in combat delay when using martial skills like block/disarm/pound/etc. Obviously those classes for whom DEX is a primary stat will see those bonuses sooner and have a wider array of skills which improve with it, but it makes it worth it for a bard to increase their DEX with a Firestone so that they might have only a 2-round delay after each block. Or maybe it's giving a reprieve against aggro mobs to any character with exceptional CHA (say one or two deterred attacks?).

It seems that the push with many of the guild store items was to incorporate more than just the primary stats for each class into some of the gear. Give that some usefulness, and then we can see if there's any ways where we could tweak existing gear to make it more desireable (and perhaps thus harder to get).

(For the record, I think the talk of making +dam gear available to a wider array of classes isn't compelling no matter the argument. If the name or description makes it seem like it should be more widely available, change those, not the restrictions.)

[Dank]

I think we should leave all existing equipment alone. Alignment would take a dozen imps a dozen years to complete. Plus there's really no point. It's like messing with the original Star Wars films. Why? They were fine in the first place. You can only just fook them up.

Instead, come up with new remort bonuses and new zones with new eq. So what if you obsolete equipment? People will always run old zones just for the memories.

I can't believe i've been playing this stupid game for more than 20 years.

[racecar]

I Would like to recommend a change to the item "White Face Mask" Sold by Nienne.

I would like to see this item first and foremost changed from head slot, to face slot.
Reason - The name itself, White FACE mask

Stat Adjustment - I believe the current stat is 2mregen 5 mana, I would also like to see this item updated to 5 Mregen/5mana
Reason - For the price tag, 2 mregen and 5 mana seems a little lackluster, if you can not upgrade the stats for balance, I would recommend cutting the price of the item at least in half.