A thought about leveling

[Antessima]

I have an idea for level gains.

It's not a new idea.

In fact, I've known of several people, some pretty high up, that have suggested this before.

The idea?


Make minimum level gains rise with remorts, not just max level gains.


I decided to post about this after getting a better level with my 0-remort level 6 Jedi than my 4-remort Jedi has gotten for the past several levels. Aelmme is level 15 now, and has had 22 int, wis, and con for all of those levels. Yet, the past several levels have been 9/6 or 9/7 or 5/10. Hell, I don't even know what max gains are for a 4-remort Jedi, except that I haven't gotten them yet. Just a few minutes ago, I pulled out my newbie Jedi and got an 11/6 with 16 int, 18 wis, and 18 con.

Why is that possible?!?! You can't convince me that the dice used to determine level gains are so generous that it is necessary to keep minimum gains low in order to maintain this fabled 'balance' that is always spoken of as the mantra of the admin team. It falls into the same classification system I use for everything in the game: does this standard help/reward a player for putting forth more effort, or does it in effect punish a player? I think that the simple fact that I now cannot reach the same amount of hp or mana that I had last remort should attest to the fact that the current way level gains are set up is a punishment for those who put forth the time and effort into remorting a character.

Some might say, "Well, you have higher max gains after remorting." For a few classes (read: cleric), the dice used to determine such gains are more generous than the dice used for such classes as Jedi or Sohei. Anyone who's run either class can readily tell you that you're about as well off without level gear as you are with it. I've run several sohei in the past, with no remorts, and it's simply a fact of life that you'll get several 4/4 levels, regardless of stats. Aelmme got a 5/7 level right off the bat this remort, and has only gotten 1 or 2 levels where both his hp and mana gains were in double digits. His max gains should be somewhere around 14/12 or perhaps 13/12. I say should be, because I haven't gotten close to that on any of his levels so far.

The question now is this: is there enough concern for player enjoyment in this game to warrant something as simple as increased minimum level gains with remorts? In my book, yes, something like this, especially something this simple, would be automatic. But I'm not a CIMP yet, so it's not my decision.

Anyway, that's my rant. Feel free to agree/disagree at will.

[Tarbal]

But I'm not a CIMP yet, so it's not my decision.


hmmm.....does someone have plans for a future career in administration?

but seriously, i think thats a great idea. whatever bonus is added to the max gain, why not add it to the min gains as well? if base gain is like 3d5 (minroll of 3 max of 15) with lets say +5 from remorts/stats the min should be 8 with max of 20 (i just pulled numbers out of my ass) i am not sure how the gains are figured, but surely it is somekind of dice roll, why not add to the total gain?

anyways, i dunno if this makes sense or not, i just wanted to voice my agreement with Ant.

mike

[Galeron]

Ant, couldn't agree more. You hit the nail right on the head. This same issues becomes especially painful on the dreaded bardic remorts. You go to all the trouble of remorting the character and running it back up to 30, only to find out that you have less hp/mana than you did the previous remort(s). When that happens it then becomes almost necessary[/] to remort the character yet AGAIN in order to see the benefit of remorting (in terms of hp/mana gains...the benefits to stats are readily apparent), and even then you might have a whole bunch of terrible levels and end up with less hp mana on your 3rd remort than on your 1st remort!

Now, I don't know exactly how the dice work, but I do know they get bigger at 17/19/21/23/25, which translates into 1/3/5/7 remorts. Hypothetically, lets say a 3 remort bard gets 1d12 hp/mana, making his max gain 12/12. And lets say hypothetically that a 1 or 2 remort bard gets 1d10 hp/mana. Wouldnt it make more sense to make the dice on the 3 remort bard something like 1d10+2? This would change the range from 1-12 to 3-12, therefore raising the minimum at the same time.

Taking the time and trouble to remort a character is, without a doubt, something that MUST be rewarded.

-gal

[DaHart85]

I heard an idea from a certain person and I'd like to give him credit, but not sure if he wants it said, so I'll leave it off for now.

Take your normal rolled level, say 6/13 and then if you have 19's the level become 7/14 and with 21's the level becomes 8/15

Say you rolled a 5/7, 19's = 6/8, 21's = 7/9.

Just an idea I thought was pure genious, oh well. Just doin my part! :-)

[Tarbal]

that is pretty much what i was trying to say...what ever the standard lvl die is...just add a bonus to it...a multi-remort char should not get lower levels than a 0 remort char imho

but hell...what do i know

mike

[guts]

It is my understanding that statistics can show that giving bigger dice as a bonus will increas the overall sum.

That you end up with less hp/mana any given remort might be that you had a kicking previous remort that acted like an average max remort bonus.

Get lucky again!

[Antessima]

It's not merely statistical probability, Guts. It's about realization of potential. With 0 remorts or 20, the simple fact that a perfect Jedi (or any class) with 25 int/wis/con can get the same 5/7 or 4/4 or 3/7 level as the same class with 0 remorts and 10 int/wis/con brings to light what I and apparently others see as a flawed system.

It is true that basic statistical probabilities mean it is likely that I'll have more hp/mana on my 5th remort than on my 1st, but you know what? I had more hp and mana on my 1st remort with Aelmme than I had on remorts 2, 3, and so far, 4. That is where detached statistical probability fails to be relative.

Let's pretend, for a moment, that our cheery little character gets gain dice of 1d8 with 1 remort. Max gain of 8, min gain of 1, average gain of 4.5. Now we'll set him next to another cheery little character who's remorted once. He used to have 1d7 for his gain dice, but since he remorted in our super-duper refined system, instead of having 1d8 now, his dice are 1d7 +1. Max gain of 8, min gain of 2, average gain 5. What's the difference? It's minimal, except when you consider that there are fewer possibilities for the second character when he gains. Thus, his gains will be more consistent, and are more likely to be higher at level 30 than the first character.

Contrast that to a system where our second character has 3 remorts. 1d8 vs. 1d10. The second character has the possibility of gaining 10, but the odds are lessened because it's 1 out of 10 chances. The first character is now more likely to reach maximum gain than the second character. In this light, the second character is being penalized for remorting, since he is less likely to achieve his max gains. Thus his only reward is an increasingly smaller chance to attain greater gains than his first remort, an exponentially smaller amount of experience gained during combat and spellcasting, and greater requirements in terms of items needed when he is ready to sacrifice and remort again.

So there it is: With each remort, you gain an increasingly smaller chance to attain greater gains than a 0-remort character. You lose momentum in terms of experience gains, and you make greater sacrifices of time and effort to sacrifice. This, in my view, is not a good system.

[mike]

long time listner, first time caller.

thoughts are like this on leveling.

if you simply add 1 to the die for each odd past 18 (19, 21, 23,25) you would add 4 to the base per level, that is 120 hp extra hp at level 30 for a mage, now to me it seems odd to literally double the hp of a class, just for remorts.

also that would add 120 to the mana of a warrior, and thief, useless imho.

If you simply move the 'wasted' 120 back into hp, then you end up adding 240 --grimmace-- to the hp of a warrior. Seems like a bad idea.

Now adding a %chance of 10, 20, 30, or 40% to add a d4 (for instance) to hp, mana, or moves. That seems like a better answer.

[guts]

Seems like in general you get +1 to the max at each of (17/19/21/23/25 stats or 1,3,5,7th remort)

Average out the gain over 30 levels you get a bonus of 15 pts/remort bonus. (60 total for max bonus on average)

If you were to +1 to min also the net effect is 30 pts/remort bonus. (120 total for max bonus on average)

Seems a little steep to double the advantage that way.

I still say remort again and you may get lucky!

[Dank]

What's the point of base stats (total hp/mana/moves) anyway? Think about it. For the professional mudizen, (and if you're reading this post, i mean you), we're interested mainly in getting our chars to 30 in order to enjoy the most powerful spells/skills of that particular class. For the one-off character, those characters that will sit at lev 30 and never remort, this issue is moot. We don't care about them.

Additionally, if we're primarily interested in perf'ing or at least stat-bonus-maxing (25 in primary category) in order to add remort bonuses, interim level gains are, for the most part, ignorable, until, of course, we get to the final remort.

So then why make level gains such a large issue?

From the game-play stand point, have a rising minimum-gain base for leveling makes complete sense. Raise the floor by the number of remorts until the min > max. (after providing for sliding-scale -stat penalties and hunger/thirst penalties)

In the case of a 20-remort warrior, say, he'd get 20 hp per level, every level he attains. That's a 600 nat hp warrior.

Hey, if you want to Bunny-remort(tm) your chars, you should be rewarded for your idiocy. I mean, you've turned your back on your family, your friends and a promising career. Why the f shouldn't you get a 15 hp level for your 22 lev Warrior?

Get a coder. Get it fixed.

Or give me the code and I'll get it fixed.

[Maranta]

Unfortunately, Dank, while I imagine most people or at least those who have been here a sufficient amount of time will agree with you. Those of us who have run our characters up through however many remorts or to the insane point like Bunny, we've all gotten hosed on probably half of them.. maybe more. We've all asked this a great many times especially after running a char through the 5-7th remort and getting gains worse than the third remort. Sufficient answers have never been given. The usual line involves the 'balance' of the game. Ya know, considering how incredibly easy it is for those upstairs to quickly buff up mobs to make things harder on us... doesn't seem like a logical answer but JediMud has never been about logic. With the majority of the playerbase permanently MIA, lack of groups and less than satisfactory post-perfect remorts, we need something far more enjoyable than increasing loss of exp with no chance of better gains.

And for those who will try to nitpick my last sentence, I'm well aware of the odds and averages stating that increased level gains for 19s/21s/etc will be better but I've seen far too many people get considerably worse gains with 23s then 17s and on a consistant basis no less.

my two coppers,

Maranta

[Dank]

maranta said:

Unfortunately, Dank, while I imagine most people or at least those who have been here a sufficient amount of time will agree with you.

i've kinda given up on the "max" character ideal. much better to just have a solid eq group contributor that will eventually have a shot at some nice eq to make up for the bad levels.

[Maranta]

I'd like to see actual visible rewards for this ever growing doctrine of 'balance' and 'challenge'. Supposedly remorts are factored into regen but I've never seen it improve or heard anyone notice a difference. It seems a blatant ripoff too when you look at the remort classes. Even with 25 int+wis bards have a minimum mana gain of 2 while rangers get it even worse with a minimum of only a single point.

At the very least raise the minimums even by 1 point after every 2-4 remorts so 8x remorted chars who have put the time and effort in to building up aren't getting beaten by 0 remorters.

[AirIIDII]

Well of course you get regen fro extra wis, int, con ,dex, strength, and charisma and you can get those higher with remorts and also can select regen when you remort. I Don't see too many Bards or Rangers in a real struggle to survive or kill mobs that load eq. It just might not be as fast as you would all like exp wise. I know that nightbringers help a lot and skinning if you put the time towards it. Sleeping mobs is a pain sometimes though.
I imagine as a bard you can charm them though , order them to sleep, ungroup, and kill them. What skills or spells on Ranger or Bard do you find yourself lacking in mana for , maybe animal
calls, or slow and hopelessness, and enrage? Now regen is another story but I think you can get by. I think WTN probably have a hard time , but there are potions,. Cleric and mages seem to do ok. Paladin and Good Jedi can be a bit slow with no area affects, or damage spells. I'm no expert on sohei and antipaladin. I think Sohei's could do ok. exp wise and Antipaladins
can hit hard eventually. Maybe make an army of characters and equip them if you don't want the remort exp and "bad" level gains.

I feel rangers and bards spells and skills outweight the amount of exp they need and nobody if forcing you to remort them, Pioneer does ok too although he complains.

[AirIIDII]

Plus it's possible that people do not want to group with certain people, I do see Drowloft's clan and other grouping often. They might not be huge groups that much.
One the one hand you're saying you want more groups, If there were more groups players you would get less even less exp/eq (unless by trade maybe) , because those groups might not want some of you. I'd like to see more players and groups personally. I think our numbers have been up from the summer too these fall months. I think it always happened that way though for 14 years or so.

[Maranta]

Allow me to clarify a few points for you then, Air, since I believe you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Firstly I find bards to be quite well balanced already in terms of eq and skills. I've remorted Mina a dozen times and could do it a dozen times more and find it enjoyable. Running exp on a bard is quite easy, solo or grouped. The equipment is great even without heaps of quest gear plus not having to ask for/mooch/beg a barding means you can run with a constant damroll bonus which easily offsets the serrated dagger/nightbringer. However as far as rangers go I can't find them balanced. While they can use skins in 13 slots, no newbie ranger can skin worth a damn and only has the movement points for one at a time. Plus skins are uptime dependant so soon as we have a crash/reboot, get a cleric bot or expect to spend many hours trying to crank out a set just to continue exping. Sure you can go at it with in-game gear but rangers only get the leftover crap from the rest of the classes with a few exceptions. I much prefered both the older and oldest skinning systems where you had to ID them yourself. Regen was faster in those days but it still took far less time, upwards of an hour, to create a full 13 slot set all with 3dam and possibly other affects. Might cost you 500k-1m in ID scrolls but it was fast, reliable and you could do it solo. Ever since auto-ID went in, it seems to take ages for myself and almost everyone else I've spoken to. I won't even get into the other stuff rangers have had happen: eg, pet reduction, ungodly concentration, etc.

And as far as grouping goes, I was refering more to the better times of a full playerbase with a minimum of 3, 5-7 man groups running at a time where all you had to do was gossip: 'hitter/bard/cleric,etc seeking group' to get tellbombed for invites. Yes you didn't get the same deathblow exp in a large group but thats not even the point. You still got hitting exp and you ran so fast you more than made up for it by killing far more mobs. When it came to eqgroups, people didn't seem to have any trouble back then getting stuff to load...

-Maranta

[Mal]

Now to bring up something else (let the flaming begin!)

Abolish leveling equipment entirely. Newbies rejoice, no need to gather that crap, when you just started playing without players helping you, and you leveled off on your own w/o any leveling gear, you didn't get hooped - old remort mofos rejoice, no need to carry that crap around using up your rent slots. Just base it off # of remorts (@7 remorts get 25 int/wis/con for leveling purposes automatically)

I know, I am brilliant.

As for boosting min and max on dice - I really think min should increase, but maybe only by half as much. So if the dice increases by 4? (19,21,23,25) increase the min by 2.

Example:
@ 0 remorts: 1d12 (avg 6.5)

Current system
@ 7 remorts: 1d16 (avg 8.5)

New system
@ 7 remorts: 1d13+3 (avg 10)

Originally Suggested System
@ 7 remorts: 1d12+4 (avg 10.5)

If that gap is too much perhaps...

On remort you get + #remorts in hp/mana/moves. So those like Bunny with > 20 remorts will have a small benefit of an extra 20+ hitpoints/mana/moves, which gives you a good chance of getting a decent remort out of the system. This at least offsets 1-2 bad levels.

Aaron