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Thief!
Mar 25, 2004 18:38:57 GMT -5
Post by pixie on Mar 25, 2004 18:38:57 GMT -5
Well, having read about the rape of suggest, and the lack of a cool skill to replace it, i will start the thread on thieves.
Steal was once cool, you could steal keys! which rocked! now you can steal... potions in the zoo, gold occasionally and the eq tiamat loots when you die there.
hmm,
anyway, sorely lacking in skills, only really need to prac 3 sneak and hide are kinda fun to slink about in a group, but seem to have no effect on mobs, i have this suspicion they were designed more for the pkill days of drow and arena, maybe make the useful somhow?
most lock worth pickin (all save 3 i can think of) are !pick angry, vault, palace are the only ones i know of that lead somewhere nice that arent !pick , and they are pick only, atleast at 1st.. so hey! 3 occasions to use that skill!
backstab and circle rock, circle assuming of course you can find a group! but backstab totally rocks so i will forgive that!
retreat is useless imho as anyone can do, thieves get to pick dir tho... ooOOoo, hunt is a dt waiting to happen,
which leaves track, rocking skill, nicer when you could track past area, would be nice to be able to prac past superb on that one, maybe superb = track from in zone, each 2 pracs (at 18 int) past adds one zone you can track through...
my ideas?
Poison seems very thief like, poison blade does 1d4 more dam, and kills regen as per poison.
pick locks able to pick! !picks with added pracs on there as per mention on track.
snare catches small amount of food
fence cas sell items for slightly more buy foe less(suggest only for sell, but, not rent)
steal, should work on shopkeepers! if you fail, he tosses you out of room, where guards are waiting!
ambush, if sneaking/hiding thiefs 1st combat action is doubled if sucessful
tumble works like the auto blocks do now
disarm device/trap, remove 1 random harmful proc from a room for x durration
conseal align (spelling) can appear to be of any align, would be nice, as aggro good should not attack a saint, and aggro evil should be too wary to attack a demonic presence.
just some starter thoughts
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Thief!
Apr 3, 2004 14:00:59 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Apr 3, 2004 14:00:59 GMT -5
i've been running my thief around lately, love the class and wish that we would change the way we think about the buggers.
i agree with everything that's been posted so far. mark that down, tammie!
but further, perhaps thieves should be considered as rogues here at jediMud, for all intents and purposes, since there is little that the class does except occassionally steal a bit of equipment or gold, as has been mentioned.
a rogue is a stealthy sort who relies on his wits rather than his brawn, and his propensity to flee a scene of impending danger always exceeds his capacity for bravery.
rogues should be able to scale walls, like at sieged, for instance.
rogues should be % !hassle when sneaking, therefore making a great mapping class. the higher level the mob, the lower the rogue's dex, the more likely he'll be heard sneaking around. poof! no more !hassle! ouch.
rogues should get a charm thief (or even better, person) sort of thing, based on their charisma of course. who ever heard of rogue that couldn't charm your pants off?
leading back a group of hawkmasks from sanctuary would be cool. pets that'd steal for you. oops that runs afoul of pk/psteal. so spank me.
rogues might get an archery skill... long range attack that could deal some serious damage... perhaps culminating in an assassinate ranged IK (like bstab but from a square away)
rogues could be considered a superset of pirates... and we could float some more carribbean themed skills in there like treasure cache. having deposit access to the bank anywhere, like burying your treasure.
rogues, if approved as a class, should get a good choice of earth-colored floppy hats. and for god's sake, don't forget the big black feather.
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Thief!
Apr 5, 2004 4:02:25 GMT -5
Post by siolfir on Apr 5, 2004 4:02:25 GMT -5
Whee, here we go again. Isn't insomnia great? I'm going to start off with the statement that the thief class, currently, is one of the most newbie-friendly and easy to play, that (like cleric) offers decent solo options as well as a very strong hitter in groups, by using circle; they don't require a ton of great equipment to do fairly well, and there's a very small learning curve (which mostly consists of "which mob can I kill in one backstab, plus maybe a hit or two, at this level?"). I like the class, and what it's capable of. Now, with that being said...scrap the class. Give the useful skills to ninja (the infiltrators and assassins who don't have a single massive damage sneak-attack shot and can't pick a lock), and allow "thief" to be a specialization of the other classes. Because it is. I don't know how the rest of you picture it, but I don't see the "thief" as a playable class on a mud that a) doesn't allow player-stealing; b) doesn't want the best equipment in the game to be had without killing the mob that loads it; and c) allows "unpickable" locks and inaccessible areas. Because when I think of a thief, I think of someone that goes in, takes things, and leaves, without anyone ever knowing that they were there - a burgler, if you will. Or the con man, that talks you out of everything you own, and makes you feel good about it - oh, wait, bards are the social class. But there's no exp to be had for stealing on a mud (only killing). Currently, thieves' skill sets lend themselves well as assassins - but there's another assassin class (ninja) which also needs more skills. There is talk of poison, and reagents...but again, these lend themselves to the assassins more than the thieves. Cut-throat and assassinate are brought up as potential skills, but once again, is this really what a burgler is going to do? Or would the burgler prefer that you never knew they were there as your safe gets emptied? What about brigands, highwaymen, and the like? They're not really thieves, though - they stop you as you're traveling, beat the snot out of you (or kill you) and then take your stuff. There's little stealth involved, and it's all based upon strength of arms - just like a bunch of warriors that decide that they want something from someone weaker than themselves. In D&D, where there are some exp points (although not many, with most of the DMs I've had the unfortunate experience to play with) for other things besides what you've killed - in those instances, you can earn as much experience (or more!) through the use of "thief skills", which include sneaking around, hiding (strange...rangers also get these, and ninja are stealth personified in legend), climbing walls (which has no place in the current way the world is built on Jedi, as "walls" are just non-exits...some of which aren't and shouldn't be climbable), finding and removing traps (once again, there isn't a "trap" other than a DT, and they aren't removable), hearing noise (bard skill on the mud), and picking locks. Admittedly, no other class currently has pick lock, but as has already been mentioned, there aren't that many locks worth picking - and, as "masters of stealth and infiltration", the ninja class could quite justifiably be given the ability. Once again, this isn't a cry out against what the thief class currently is: it's a much better "assassin" class than ninja is, without adding any skills to it. It's just not a thief. But in an effort to create unique classes that have a large number of skills, while still remaining true to the concept of the class, perhaps combining the two most-similar classes into one class that would be more fun and more useful than either would be a better route than wracking our brains twice to find out that all we're doing is creating two seperate assassin classes and no thief class.
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Thief!
Apr 5, 2004 4:23:33 GMT -5
Post by pixie on Apr 5, 2004 4:23:33 GMT -5
IMHO thieves are an essential class in any pen and paper group, not as a sneaky thief so much as the rogue. smart as she is dexterious and having a keen sense of her surroundings, exp. people.
a rougue has an innate sense about who to nd who not to talk to about almost any given topic, they can spot a fence at 100 feet and a lawman at 1000.
very seldom does my d&d thief steal, backstab or pick a lock, is more like a shady bard, also a rogue, just a subclass..
anyway, maybe more of the combat skills, save the traditional backstab should go the way of ye olde ninja, and more social skills (buffs/debuffs) should go the way of thief, who should possibly be re-named rogue.
In an environment that is mostly !steal, !pick, thief seems to be almost, well worthless, but I love thieves!
So i propose a refocus on what this class means in these realms, and a more player friendly definition be posted here, I know there are new defs on the web page, but...
perhaps swwashbuckling skills for the class fencing +dam/hr wsing stabbing/piercing weapons
parry autoblock, or command 3 round lag block
repost block that deflects small ammount of dam back to attacker
some banter combat skills (think Princess Bride swordfight at top of cliffs, and the to the pain speech) intimidate, combat or non, %chance mob will flee, or attack speaker, %chance will lower hitroll of enemy if rogue is tank
mock, (enrage, but not on players, mob attacks speaker)
con, as per influence, if fails, mob either, 1)raises all prices comensurate with failure, or 2, kicks out into arms of waiting guards
palm, steal small items from shopkeepers, easy to steal an ornate ring, kinda hard to palm gsp base on weight of obj?
balance, good chance will not be put to sitting position on bash skills
tumble, will not be put to sitting if thrown, reduce dam if thrown by .5, .25 if make save
juggle, can deflect arrows from group!
anyhow, just som quick ideas
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Thief!
Apr 5, 2004 4:56:52 GMT -5
Post by siolfir on Apr 5, 2004 4:56:52 GMT -5
I'm not arguing the usefulness of a thief in pen-and-paper games. And playing the "shady bard" is a role-playing choice, and honestly everything you described could fit any class - although I will grant you that the "thief" class in D&D is the most streetwise.
What I was trying to say was that, granted the hack-and-slash nature of a mud, a streetwise class that tries to survive by not initiating combat has no real place. And I would have to disagree with saving backstab for thieves because "it's traditional". It made little sense in D&D, and makes even less sense when there is a class that specializes in assassinations that doesn't have it. And if any single class on Jedi should have backstab, it would be ninja...not thief.
As for more social skills, both for buffs and debuffs... sure, you could add all the social stuff to thieves, but then what are bards going to do? Whine about having to use an instrument, when the non-remort, half-the-exp-needed class can do the same things? If there's a glib talker among the available classes, it would have to be the bard. Yes, they're both "rogues" under the D&D rules, and bards have a more musical bent - but they are the social class on the mud, which has charisma as the primary attribute.
I'm really just not seeing a place for them, since there are two "specialist" classes that can absorb anything that you would add to them, and it would make as much sense or more to put them there. Holding on to the class for sentimental reasons, and then stating that each class should be unique in what they do and how they do it only serves to withhold skills from other classes just to give them to a class that doesn't really have a role.
Now, I'd be willing to buy the argument of renaming the thief class to assassin, and eliminating the ninja class, since this more closely fits the defined roles as they exist currently. The reason I suggested the reverse was because there is a mystique about ninja that allows more "magical" abilities for stealth, and a better rationale for debuffs as shiatsu points.
Once again, I happen to like the current abilities of the thief class - but I just don't see a spot for it by definition with the other classes that are available.
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Thief!
Apr 5, 2004 14:10:43 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Apr 5, 2004 14:10:43 GMT -5
well i, for one, wouldn't want the job of telling hanse that he was just another anachronism in the fast-paced world of uber-mudding.
poor shadowspawn and the rest of the thieves in sanctuary... npcs without a class... or a cause.
[some great posts to this thread, and i would like to applaud all the posters. i continue to be amazed that some one you can break down nearly a dozen classes and render such a lucid commentary for each one.]
ok, sure, a thief is merely an overarching description on a brand of human behavior that has colored interpersonal relations throughout history. occupationally, the singular thief has been alternatively known as either a pick-pocket, cut-purse, robber, sneak, or burglar. these guys are the shadowy scum of the earth, avoiding confrontation wherever possible, placing a dagger in the back of an unsuspecting mark instead of the front. what's the point of chivalry if you end up dead?
more heroic sorts come to us the the form of brigands, pirates, desperados, rustlers, and hordes: organized bands of men bent of the violent overthrow of those that have in order to provide for those that have not. namely, themselves.
D&D player characters are only comprised of those heroic sorts that stand head and shoulders above mere mortal men. It's what makes my W30 human warrior different than a really tough gate guard. It's the suspension of disbelief that separates you from the mobile world.
ninjas are an outgrowth of the desperate socio-politics of imperial japan. a ninja is, basically, a paid assassin developed to counter the rank and file chivlary of the samurai. throw in their legendary ability to seemingly vanish into the night, scale walls and fly from rooftop to rooftop and you've just touched on the endless magical qualities their class evokes.
bards, to me, can be epitomized in the heroic character Tom Bombadil from LOTR lore. Tom is the first bard, imho. ask yourself what Bombadil would do, and you've got a bard. In fact, read the several chapters that revolve around the early fellowship's sojournings through the forests and barrows east of the Shire, and you have the essence of what a bard is.
therefore, we're left with the jediMud thief. pure and simple, he is a throwback to the PK/PS days of the mud, more of a player vs. player character than a heroic class. i'd tend to agree that he is an anachronism in today's jediMUD, as PK/PS is now outlawed.
perhaps, then, the thief class undergoes a metamorphosis into a generic adventurer class (rogue, buccaneer) -- make it a universal newbie class that blends skills of the thief, for true combat avoidance, and new skills that allow unhassled charting of the mud's many zones. additionally, add a skill that would enable this class to commandeer a boat at any dock, obviating the need of a watercraft. higher skills could provide Mapmaking: a skill like hunt, but one that would allow a safe speedwalk to some number of checkpointed locations. then place other appropriate thieving abilities into ninjas, bards, rangers and warriors.
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Thief!
Apr 5, 2004 23:16:16 GMT -5
Post by pixie on Apr 5, 2004 23:16:16 GMT -5
If the revision team is so lucky as to have say 100 skill ideas for thief/ninja, why not split it between them, maybe the new skill sets can add some of the missing definition between the classes.
I personally would rather keep the thief over ninja simply because of my love of the class in pen and paper games, and people coming in from that arena might appreciate the name of a beloved class over the cool mythos that might exist as ninja.
Anyway, in my limited knowledge of muds, skill sets make the class, they define and expand the role. So lets see what it offers under either.
as per ninjas and monks both having the same kung-fu skill sets, i look at it like this: monk (sohei) = pal, ninja = apal, per that skill set.
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Thief!
Apr 8, 2004 21:15:57 GMT -5
Post by Tarbal on Apr 8, 2004 21:15:57 GMT -5
i really like the idea of combining thief and ninja...it would be a powerful class that would have some appeal to groups i think...with defend and circle and disarm and maybe some other of the killer skills mentioned before
i think that a skill that allows thief/ninja/whatever to detect traps *death trap* kinda like rangers terrain would be fitting...since we obviously cant have them disarm a DT at least they may be able to detect it...well i guess thats all i have to say for now..later
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Thief!
Apr 8, 2004 22:20:36 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Apr 8, 2004 22:20:36 GMT -5
i really like the idea of combining thief and ninja...it would be a powerful class that would have some appeal to groups i think... i don't. i'm with pixie. they're two distinct classes, each with a completely different ethos. let's examine the math, for a moment in order to clarify: ninja==assasin :: thief==unlawful sot at jedi, ninja's need to be imbued with more of a caster element to lend to their legendary mystique [please consult the giant ninja post i recently made] and thieves need to get some true thieving abilities that allow them to avoid battle and sneak around undectected and steal stuff. rather than a warrior class, thieves should be an adventuring class. rather a simple a warrior class, ninjas should remain stealthy fighters but gain a tad more magic... soheis fall into the matrix as a tad less warrior than cleric and a tad more mage than a ninja. (count the tads, i dare you.) well now i've confused myself. anway, i imagine with an improved auto-questing system, jedi will eventually be able to accomodate storylines for every class, including thieves, soheis, and ninjas, not to mention increased support for theme assemblies and so forth. doing away with any of the above classes in order to consolodate will detract from the variety of classes available to the world. i know we're not hardcore rpg (nor are we softcore rpg, darn it) but it is nice to play within the established confines of metaphorical fantasy. whatever the heck that is.
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Thief!
Apr 9, 2004 10:32:07 GMT -5
Post by siolfir on Apr 9, 2004 10:32:07 GMT -5
Since Arie hasn't responded to either this thread or the ninja thread, I'll assume that you're talking about Pixie instead. And I completely agree, they are two distinct ethos, although the current skillsets to not represent this. Backstab is an assassin's skill - it really serves no other purpose than to kill someone with minimal fuss. Circle is the same thing - you find a vulnerable spot while someone else is fighting, and insert dagger A into soon-to-be slot B, to shorten the fight.
Consolidation will always affect variety. But currently, the only variety is which assassin class you would rather play, since neither class is a thief. But I've already listed my reasons for wanting the consolidation, and why I chose ninja over thief to keep - something that you agreed with was that thieves are an anachronism in a non-PK/PS mud (not quoted here, just look up a few posts). And I most wholeheartedly disagree with keeping the thief class solely for sentimentality (or, as you put it, the established confines of metaphorical fantasy).
Somehow I doubt that every !pick door will go away, that sneak will become protection-from-anything, and that thieves will be allowed to steal anything and everything. I doubt that thieves will be allowed to act like thieves. And even if they could, what would be the point? They'd still have to act like baby warriors, going out and picking fights all the time to gain levels - something that is rather contrary to their very nature.
As for the "rogue" and "buccaneer" class...what variety does it add? If you said nothing, you're right! The number of seas can be counted on one hand, there aren't shipping routes to disrupt, and quite honestly, a buccaneer is less a thief than a warrior anyway - see my earlier post when I talked about highwaymen. They attack people and beat the snot out of them and then take what they want. So they have some skills with sailing, anyone can learn to sail, and there's little use for said skills in the game.
As for rogue, you mentioned sneaking about, archery, charming people, and scaling walls. Pixie mentioned turning the class into swashbucklers and had a great set of warrior skills with which to do that, and then a list of skills that would fit better on bards. This is the problem - for any single thing that you'd want to give the broad category (rogue), there's a specific class that is more likely to have it, and would fit better. Give rogues autoparry and not warriors? Where's the justification in that? Because "rogues are swashbucklers" and so should be better at fighting than the primary fighting class?
The idea of having so many skills on a particular class is to allow variety within a singular class; if you want your warrior to be a swashbuckler you learn those skills, your ninja can focus on the mystic aspects of his/her art, and each member of the same class won't have all of the exact same skills. The class revision team is looking for 90+ skills per class. I don't see coming up with 90 skills for a rogue class that has so much overlap with everything else, so I suggested eliminating it. It will hardly kill the playability or variety, and clinging to it from a sentimental need to have a thief class just makes no sense to me. Heck, they aren't even thieves now!
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Thief!
Apr 9, 2004 13:06:37 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Apr 9, 2004 13:06:37 GMT -5
given a small amount of time, say a week, i could probably come up with the skills you refer to that would help definitively separate a thief from a ninja or bard. in fact, i think i'll get started on that immediately.
now, apart from simply justifying the existence of the class with some vague promise of new skills, i'd like to get you thinking more along the lines of a software developer who is about to issue a new version of a popular software program with a widely installed base.
there must be dozens, if not hundreds of thieves out there. i doubt that the class revision team is planning to force those players to choose between three classes at some cataclysmic future login session.
it would be like removing backward compatibility from your new code, obsoleting older versions of saved data sets in one horrifyingly myopic release. (it's been done before -- just ask the visicalc folks... oops! they're no longer in business, nevermind.)
anway, i'll put together some skills and some other suggestions. hey, i haven't put six years into my silly thief just to one day see him don black tights and lurk about the night throwing metal at unsuspecting folks.
well... maybe pink tights, but definitely not black.
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Thief!
Apr 9, 2004 15:58:26 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Apr 9, 2004 15:58:26 GMT -5
here's some AD&D skill trees. i'd love to see the game scrap the half-assed practice methodology in favor of this type of enhanced skill cost pointing... instead of a few pracs / level, you'd get skill points (could be variable between a min and max gain / level dependent upon stats) ... and then you could spend them picking up skills from, at the very least, guildmasters, but then the options become endless... as you could try to pick up a variety of skills from just about any mob that was programmed to teach you.
[Human Racial Tree] Skill Cost (CP) Attack Bonus (Shortsword) 5 Hit Point Bonus 10 Experience Bonus (5%) 5 New Ability: Only needs 1 hour sleep a night 15 New Disadvantage: Severe (Addicted to stimulant drug) +15
[Required Tree] Skill Cost (CP) Priest XP Table 30 Rogue THAC0 20 Rogue Hit Dice 20 Rogue Saving Throws 20
[Optional Trees] Skill Cost (CP) Stealth Skill Tree (Primary) 12 Pick Pockets 10 Open Locks 10 Hide in Shadows 10 Climb Walls 5 Backstab 10 Find/Remove Traps 10 Reading Lips 3 Disguise (4) 4 Weapon Proficiency (Shortsword) 10 Gaming (5) 2 Unarmed Combat Skill Tree (Secondary) 5 INT Bonus +3 Gaming +2 (7) 2
Level 2 Skill Cost (CP) 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10 +5 to Disguise (9) 5
Level 3 Skill Cost (CP) 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10 +3 to Disguise (12) 5 Thief Weapon Proficiency (Garrote) 10
Level 4 Skill Cost (CP) 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10 Detect Noise 5 Bribe 5
Level 5 Skill Cost (CP) 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10 Escape Bonds 10
Level 6 Skill Cost (CP) Thief Weapon Proficiency (Dagger) 10 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10
Level 7 Skill Cost (CP) 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10 Move Silently 10
Level 8 Skill Cost (CP) 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10 Thieves' Cant 5 +2 to Disguise (14) 4 +1 to Gaming (8) 1
Level 9 Skill Cost (CP) 25 Discretionary Thief Skill Points 10 +2 to Disguise (16) 4 Ventriloquism (5) 4 Ventriloquism +2 (7) 2
what could you do with ventriloquism? fiik... but future developers could build it into the puzzle system. this is a pretty robust list. that should give this tired old thread something substantial to move forward with.
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Thief!
Apr 9, 2004 19:17:18 GMT -5
Post by siolfir on Apr 9, 2004 19:17:18 GMT -5
Thank you for the condensed skill tree of the AD&D thief - it serves to show my point a little better if it's right there in front of me.
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Thief!
Apr 9, 2004 20:52:34 GMT -5
Post by Arizhel on Apr 9, 2004 20:52:34 GMT -5
Class-rev committee sez: At this time there are no plans to abolish thieves in any way, shape, or form. Whether that be to completely yank them, or to meld them with ninja, there are as of this time no plans to do anything of the sort.
I would much rather come up with ways to diversify the two classes rather than melting them into one class, and therefore cutting down on the choices a player character has.
Granted, we could always add new classes, but that's a whole new can of worms.
That is all.
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Thief!
Apr 11, 2004 3:49:22 GMT -5
Post by pixie on Apr 11, 2004 3:49:22 GMT -5
sneeky and dam skills do seem to fit both classes, then i could argue spell casting is primarily mage, so put all cleric skills into mage, and nix cleric class, besides, i wish my wod squad could sanc/heal!
ok i am kidding, dont flame the heck outta me for that, flame me for this.
I consider the ' I worked hard to make a thief, if i wanted a freakin ninjam i woulda selected one when i started' to be a valid arguement.
It is a game, and should be fun, if you want a thief, and had the option to get a thief, you should keep a thief. so i am glad to hear that there are no plans to cut the class.
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Thief!
Apr 11, 2004 10:11:07 GMT -5
Post by Arizhel on Apr 11, 2004 10:11:07 GMT -5
sneeky and dam skills do seem to fit both classes, then i could argue spell casting is primarily mage, so put all cleric skills into mage, and nix cleric class, besides, i wish my wod squad could sanc/heal! Pfeh. They're completely different types of spellcasters. Mages memorize stuff out of a book. Clerics pray to their deity for miracles, if you want to state it really simply. Mage is already very very condensed. There's many different schools of magic to choose from, not to mention you can choose either wizard or sorcerer (our mages seem to be of the 'sorcerer' type, not having to commit certain spells to memory). Clerics are also very very condensed. A cleric usually has to pick two domains to specialize in, based on what deity he worships. For example, a cleric of St. Cuthbert can choose two from this list: Strength, Destruction, Protection. He gets bonus spells from his domains each level, but has to choose how many of each spell he gets. The cleric is restricted not in the actual spells he knows, but simply how many he can cast per day. Mages cannot heal. That's the sole domain of classes like cleric/paladin, who perform great things in the name of a god. And then we get to JediMUD, where every other class has heal, and can cast it x+1 times, where x -> infinity. That is, as long as the mana holds out. Oy.
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Thief!
Apr 27, 2004 1:18:57 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Apr 27, 2004 1:18:57 GMT -5
i regret that it's taken me awhile to respond to siolfir's diatribe. (not that i didn't have anything to say on the matter, it's just that i didn't really feel it required any response.)
but i will say this:
siolfir (and perhaps others) are convinced that thieves are an anachronism in the manner they are currently implemented at JediMUD. they can't see that any new thief implementation might help the class regain some of its RPG heritage (read glory).
i can only hope that the class revision team continues to see otherwise, as arizhel's supportive posts have indicated.
and of course, my post wouldn't be complete without the inclusion of several irrefutable, lucid and powerful notions to back my conviction:
nyah, nyah and phbbt.
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Thief!
May 10, 2004 11:09:53 GMT -5
Post by Dank on May 10, 2004 11:09:53 GMT -5
dammit, farb. i'll take it like a man and come right out and admit it... you're good, damned good. your previous post was one of your best... concise, essay-like, with a thoughtful premise and solid presentation. like a fine dinner at a five-star restaurant.
thieves rule. make sneak/hide like !hassle, implement farb's ideas and the class team is done.
now, all o' ye, fly on out here to SF, take off yer chainmail and let's dance about the may pole.
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Thief!
May 10, 2004 19:27:26 GMT -5
Post by Arizhel on May 10, 2004 19:27:26 GMT -5
Hey! Don't ye be talkin bout yer 'may pole' on these boards!
There might be children about, ya know!
;D
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Thief!
Sept 27, 2006 11:18:03 GMT -5
Post by Maranta on Sept 27, 2006 11:18:03 GMT -5
Well the helpfile says the success is based on mastery of the skill but anyone not running with it at Superb is mental. However while running my own thief, I kept a high strength ~20/100 but only 21 dex while only rarely suffering from missed backstabs. I'd suggest just getting yourself a regular dose of papal blessings, they should make a noticeable improvement especially for thieves not using an orb, BO rings, etc.
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Thief!
Jan 5, 2009 18:44:15 GMT -5
Post by Mal on Jan 5, 2009 18:44:15 GMT -5
I am pretty sure someone else suggested this - so I take no credit - but it would be a simple skill for a thief to have, a thief can sell any item on the black market (shopkeeper to be added in thieves guild or elsewhere). This would not be at regular price, perhaps 25-50% reduced compared to selling to regular shopkeepers. These shopkeepers would have infinite gold so they can buy anything from a thief to place on the black market. The items in question could either be: a) left on the shopkeeper to be bought back later (at full price) b) purged from the game
In the event that it is purged from game, may need to re-evaluate some items in the game if they can be quickly reset/sold for cash - but why not have a thief running gold anyhow? I doubt many people use thieves to steal gold.
If this is too much work, but you like the idea, you could simply drop a shopkeeper inside each thieves guild and give them 100k to 1m each. (But this would allow other classes to sell/buy which isn't my intent)
Aaron
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eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Thief!
Jan 10, 2009 14:19:46 GMT -5
Post by eniac on Jan 10, 2009 14:19:46 GMT -5
Any comments on the thief changes lately with sneak/hide & escape? I'm looking for some more unique changes for the thief. I also think after playing my thief for a bit that hide should totally block aggro.
What do you think?
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Thief!
Jan 10, 2009 14:36:22 GMT -5
Post by Mal on Jan 10, 2009 14:36:22 GMT -5
I think you would need to have a flag on mobs 'sense life' - if they have sense life, they can aggro the thief. If the mob doesn't have sense life, the thief should be freely able to sneak/hide past them.
If you do not have the sense life concept for mobs, then you will need a way for mobs to aggro thieves regardless if hidden or not for quest zones and such.
This change would not undervalue having pfe/pfg on a thief - as it would allow the thief to stab a room full of aggro mobs without getting hit. Hide/sneak just lets him sneak past. I just hope we can have the sense life idea in place.
Cheers,
Aaron
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Thief!
Jan 10, 2009 15:33:43 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Jan 10, 2009 15:33:43 GMT -5
I LOVE THE NEW THIEF CHANGES! Jesus Christ, man, where have you been all my jedi life? I love you. Seriously. Where do I send the check? Effing A. Eniac for Mud President. Okay, whew that felt good... okay, where was I? Right. Okay, so I know you might think I'm crazy, but how about this: 1. While hiding (only) thieves gain a tad more hpR... like sleeping, but when you sleep, some mobs can detect you and will attack sleepers. While a big T tank hides, he'll effectively get the regen rate of a sleep. 2. If you imp this next one, I think you're done with the T class (except maybe some minor crap (see below) and some new eq/weapons...) A steal will ALWAYS have some remote chance of getting equipped eq if it is equipped in the following slots: light rings neck wrist holdable and the mob is not fighting. could be set at the load rate of the item multiplied by a dex modifier. wow. ppl would run multi-remort thieves just to see if this shizz worked! trust me. 3. thief 'incite riot' skill the incite skill would basically be like a bardic mass charm spell. those mobs failing save would basically become part of the Ts band. Yeah, this is a T25 skill methinks. 4. give thieves the ability to detect DTs, like rangers. with EXTREMELY high dex (say 23+), a thief might be prevented from entering a DT. 5. five, oh wait, no... you're done!
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Asdf
New Member
Posts: 16
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Thief!
Jan 10, 2009 16:20:23 GMT -5
Post by Asdf on Jan 10, 2009 16:20:23 GMT -5
As someone who has played thief, I have some thoughts on them.
Primary problem: They do not have many skills, their usefulness is limited.
Secondary problem: As a class they are under powered, I can't think of any other class that cant kill the same level simple mob as they are. If the mob is bigger than the damage a thief can do in a single backstab and maybe a round or two after, their dead. They do not have the hit points and armor to take on much more than mid-level mobs on a normal basis.
But on to the skills I would like the thief to have.
The skill I miss the most is some kind of area attack skill. I can't count the number of times I wanted to kill a mob that is hidden, or start a fight with a whole room full. I don't mean backstab the whole room, just start a fight with the whole room
It is said, merchants get up very early in the morning, but thieves get up the night before. Thieves should get a night vision and maybe detect invisible skill. A thief wouldn't be a very good thief if he couldn't see in the dark.
A thief should be able to have a know history skill. A thief that cant pick out the gold from the chaff isn't going to make it as a thief.
lastly, to make it so a thief might be able to last more than a couple of rounds with a mob its own size, a thief should use their dex and get a dodge like skill.
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