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Post by pixie on Apr 16, 2004 0:28:14 GMT -5
apal/pal, summon steed (pegasus/nightmare) stats per animal call 2 ish w/perma fly on pet?
skill ride steed, per fly, but steed looses hp slowly as ridden, after all i am sure we have all heard of riding a horse into the ground...
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Post by Dank on Apr 16, 2004 3:17:54 GMT -5
"Crom, I have never prayed to you before... Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, the HELL with you!" -- Conan the Barbarian, 1982
so it's unanimous then: warriors should be more closely modeled around a light infantry paradigm: and eq rests should be adjusted accordingly in order to bring them more in line with, say, a ranger.
for starters, just ask yourself what conan would do.
(1) what's conan's favorite weapon?
conan likes to dual-wield one-hundred pound iron mallets, but he can fight with found objects in a pinch. embedded his sword in a stout oak tree? no problem! uproot tree and wield it.
(2) does conan bother with armor?
conan doesn't give a damn about armor. he'll fight naked if pressed. a scratch here, a minor abrasion there, he'll kill your entire country before he needs a unit of blood.
(3) from the following list, pick those weapons that conan might use, given the opportunity:
(a) a boulder (b) an opponent's leg (c) two boulders and a redwood stump (d) two opponents' legs (e) all of the above
if you answered (e), congratulations, you're thinking like conan.
(4) from the following list, pick the items of armor that conan might use:
(a) nothing, conan is not a sissy boy! (b) chain plate (c) brigandine (d) full plate (e) none of the above
if you answered anything but (a), have your partner chop you head off in your private, scale-model, guillotine.
following the conan line of reasoning, perhaps it's time to give warriors a rudimentary skinning skill to offset some of the larger, more encumbering armor/weapons that should be restricted from the class.
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Post by pixie on Apr 16, 2004 13:56:25 GMT -5
off hand corpse <wielded> corpse of the statue of Onivel
Schmuckbob ANNIHILATES Buddah with his ultimate Crush.
yeah wielding corpses would be sweet, could give them killer stats since they are: 1) !rent and 2) dissolve
besides laying the smackdown on the sultan using his own corpse to do it would be funny.
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Post by Arizhel on Apr 16, 2004 23:39:58 GMT -5
Now, wielding a leg I could perhaps buy, but wielding an entire corpse? Keep in mind a corpse weighs as much as, well, whomever it used to belong to. How much strength do you think you'd need to wield something that weighed 200+ pounds, not to mention was as tall & wide as you are, and flopped around rather uckily as it was swung? Throwing a corpse at someone is -not- wielding it. That's throwing a corpse at someone, which would require a great deal less skill in avoiding flying (dead!) arms each time the corpse was swung. I think you'd need to be a giant or something to properly "wield" a corpse, personally. Anyway, onward to warriors. "Warrior" is a fairly generic word, used to cover anything from swashbucklers, who typically wear little to no armor, and wield light weapons such as rapiers, to knights in platemail on the backs of heavy warhorses, lances aloft, and pennants snapping in the wind. Barbarians, gladiators, mercenaries.. these are all warriors, after a fashion. Knights are not necessarily paladins. Paladins fit the knight image, but there's one big difference -- divine powers. Your typical knight may or may not pray to his God. Your typical paladin not only prays to his God like clockwork, but his prayers are answered. One -can- be a knight and not be a paladin. As for armor class... I'll have to disagree. I'll take an example from the D&D game we're currently playing. I play a 4th level cleric, while Tam plays a 4th level paladin. There are two 4th level barbarians in the group, and a 4th level illusionist. The cleric has the best possible armor class of the 5, with elven chainmail, a steel shield, and a goodly amount of divine aid. The paladin and one of the barbarians tie for 2nd place, as the paladin has no such spell available yet (correct me if I'm wrong here, Tam . The 2nd barbarian has a base ac of 2 points lower. The illusionist most likely has the worst armor class, but since he avoids combat like the plague anyway, it's not much matter. Base armor class, many classes should be about on a par with each other. Warriors, paladins, clerics, they can all wear platemail if they really want to. It's the casting of spells that gives some classes an edge over others. Of course, the casting of spells in combat requires a little more effort in D&D, so perhaps therein lies our problem.
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Post by Arizhel on Apr 21, 2004 0:19:53 GMT -5
and saying your pad and paper char has elven chain is somewhere on the lines of saying DOOM, or perhaps it has become beeb added to far easier loot table, or my dm was an ass? My recollection of my level 4 chars (who OH MY GOD did not receive all the best equipment on creation) was still wearing alot of leather while saving for for plate arms and armor. Actually, the only difference between chainmail and elven chain is the weight, which only affects things like your dex penalty (which isn't really applicable to the cleric) and the speed with which you move. Keep in mind, there are also different types of RP campaigns. Your DM may simply have run a campaign that was a bit lighter on magic items. The paladin is wearing half-plate. I'm pretty sure the halfling barbarian just benefits from a hellacious dex bonus, though. Dunno, my visions of the classes are probably irrevocably colored by D&D, I'll admit that much. I see a swashbuckler as just as much of a warrior as a gladiator or a knight. My theory is probably laughable but somewhere along the lines the lines of class reworking someone should sit down and order the classes as far as AC, dmg equipment, damage per round melee, damage per round spells, healing ability, pets, etc so that all the classes can excel at something and no one class becomes top heavy in all useful skills. Uh, what makes you think we haven't already started doing this? (In other words, it's a good idea and stuff) Back in my older days my chaotic nuetral dual classed warrior thief (drow talk about evil xp mods, still not as bad as 10x remorts) could sneak attack, ripposte, cleave through goblins like an nice fireball. Older days? Damn, dude 3rd edition isn't -that- old. Not suggesting dual class, because Ive seen that vetoed too many times, and the arguements against make alot of sense. Agreed here. Multi-classing is fun, but only if the mud is set up for it. Kinda like multiplaying.
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Post by pixie on Apr 21, 2004 2:57:19 GMT -5
I would tend to agree that warrior is a very broad category, and dont forget my favorite, peasant hero.
I think the coolest thing for warriors would be if they has a massive skill tree to represent this. Opposing combat styles, skills to make other skills cheaper (gladiator skill pracs at 2x cost of standard skill, makes skills on the gladiator tree cost 25% less, and skills from others cost 50% more). I am still liking the idea of weapon proficiencies, and armor skills. I would think it cool also to add a smithing skill so warriors could fix armor (see damaged eq posts elsewhere)
Skill trees are the best hope, and I hope are bieng used extensively. No other class has the opportunities for this kind of system as warriors do, just based on lack of transferable game mechanics from pen and paper to coded, align, god imposed penalties, etc. for clerics, ostricism and banning from libraries for mages who betray, you just cant do it, so they are limited, but warriors are a hack and slash class, and this is a hack and slash game, go nuts.
*****begin useless rant*****
the problems with basing too much outside base ideas, which armors have what ac, who has what skill etc is simply this, you cant code a dm.
So you cant say ack, you killed grom green nose, who was really an undercover agent of Helm, badly wounded making him killable by you, oh is yer god gunna be pissed, no spells for 3 months, 2 gaes and all your eq is poof.
ok so thats weird, but, you cant have the depth to characters in a DIKU you can on paper. Honestly, how would an illusionist fare in Jedi? Ok illusion and mirror could be cool skills, but, realisticly? you cant play the characters in the same spirit. No matter what you do to the skills, there will be an *ideal* skill set, for each class, maybe 2, kinda like furball vs mana b*tch. but anyhow. thats how it is, thats how it will be.
the only thing you can do is make sure that skills are named right and that they do what they do in rank with the other classes.
no one should heal better than a cleric. no spell caster should be more feared than mages for all out damage, no bar room brawler better than a warrior, no h-t-h better than a monk, no one sneakier than a ninja, and so on.
Like Farb said, and Ariz agreed, line em up in categories, and make sure each has a strong point or 2, but make sure each has some pretty serious flaws too.
I know some ppl like playing a uber impossible to kill mondo beast, but it is kinda a drag to start a class as one, once you have some considerable remort time, sure, you should be able to kill about anything in reason i guess once you pass 500m equivalent xp, i can see that arguement, but lets not hand it to em for free.
that said, I would like to see some ungodly stat restricted/bonused (in that a word?) skills. If you have less tan a 10 dex (think remorted from apal) you should not be able to block, dhit, or any other dex skill with any kind of regularity, if you have a 10 or under int, you arent bright enough to get much from weapons KNOWLEDGE, if yer srt blows, you might not be able to bash or pummel, and so on.
I dont think there is a skill that can not reasonably be assigned to an attribute, so please make stats have more to do with the game than hp/mana/move gain/regen, and spell/phys dam. make stats cause skills to have bonus affects, if exceptional, and fail 90% of the time if abysmal.
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Tam
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Post by Tam on Apr 21, 2004 16:00:20 GMT -5
I just thought I'd chime in with a quick thought regarding upper level warrior skills. Don't forget that the game isn't just about causing damage with every skill. It can revolve around combinations as well.
For example, a warrior might trip his opponent (set his opponent to resting/stunned with a 0-1 round delay) then execute a command called choke (which only works on mobs that are in a rested, stunned or sleeping position). So then over the next several rounds (until the mob breaks free or the warrior breaks the hold), the warrior happily sits on the mob's chest and chokes it to death, causing automatic damage each round.
Now, choke might only cause 20 points of damage each round, but.... it might last several rounds, thus making it a higher level skill.
NOTE: This is a ficticious example, as are the skills contained within.
NOTE ALSO: A skill like trip could also be coupled with other skills like "sitonthebadguyschestandpunchhimoverandoverintheface", so that we aren't short-sighted enough to only allow certain skills to be used together.
-Tam
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Post by Wulfgar on Aug 17, 2004 12:42:55 GMT -5
Ok i have read all your posts on warrior's I play a warrior alot on the game, he has 150 regen. So I thought I would chime in. The only suggestion i have is: 1) We need to fix throw, fire, shoot etc. and 2) There needs to be alittle more dam/dex gear. Other than that I have no complaints.
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Post by Silverking on Aug 17, 2004 18:10:35 GMT -5
While I agree that there needs to be a few more nice dex items out there, I can't see a Warrior needing any more damage gear. They easily can have the most damager per hit than any other class in the game, and giving them even more damage EQ is just crazy... Dex good, damage bad.
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farbekrieg
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Post by farbekrieg on Aug 17, 2004 19:09:52 GMT -5
Perhaps by dam/dex gear he meant having both on 1 item
1 dam 1 dex shield 1 dam 1 dex gaunts 2 dam 1 dex wrist items etc
I personally would like to see a 1 str / dex low level neck item for warriors but thats just me...
Something along the lines of a 25 dex/str warrior would have some kind of even position with 25 int/wis casters.. but thats another discussion all together
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Griffon
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Post by Griffon on Aug 25, 2004 12:49:29 GMT -5
I think you'd need to be a giant or something to properly "wield" a corpse, personally. Can anyone say "new class"? -Nic
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Post by Dank on Nov 30, 2004 4:04:06 GMT -5
"Crom, I have never prayed to you before... Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, the HELL with you!" -- Conan the Barbarian, 1982 like i said, a simple paradigm is the perfect paradigm...
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farbekrieg
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Post by farbekrieg on Nov 30, 2004 12:26:16 GMT -5
The Warrior class can best be considered a parent class of a number of sub classes, which range from the berserker with massive 2 handed weapons to knights with lances on steeds. Where the one falls into the all offensive category while the other tends to be more defensive.
At jedi the latter has been dedicated to PAL/APAL paradigm, which is fair enough, but the number of offensive skills while impressive wk and double hit, but their is nothing like defensive stance, parry, ripposte, cleave, use of 2 handed weapons, use of dual wield, shield skills, fencer, charge, spirit of battle, call of the warrior, battlecry, battle tactics, sign of the warlord, rally, weapon specializations, horsemenship, tirade, stoneskin, enrage, bloodlust, dance of blades, taunt, damage mitigation based by class, multiple class combo moves etc.
Think of the many warrior classes you have seen or played throughout you life a brief list of variations of the warrior class Ive played Beserker, Squire, Knight, Warlord, Fencer, Crusader, Cavalier, Swordsmen, footsoldier, centurian, Legionaire, Mercenary, Brute, Black Knight, White Knight, Red Knight, Fighter, Weaponsmaster etc.
The issue of warriors being a 'dull' class to play again focuses on the passiveness of the class, restricted to only assisting or hitting to start a battle and then nothing, the no action affects of many skills combined with the godly damage of wk and double hit make the class stagnant by skill set, additionally the bonuses for non casting classes to remort is far slimmer then those of casters (ie casters can become 35% better in skill/spell use and already are not afflicted by noaction, (unless hit by entropy), while non casters simply get a very moderate reduction in delays, and as said for the warrior in particular this offers very little in motivation, and as pointed out hp regen is by a factor of 4 or 5 less useful then mana regen.
There are tons of skills avialable from that small group of warrior classes that I have played that can EASILY translate to jedimud world. The problem is the addition of these skills will require a lessened ability of wk and double hit because while these passive skills exist, and the current combat system remains, sacrificing the passive skill damage possiblities of the warrior for anything else is a laughable idea.
Warriors have been given non passive skills, now give them a reason to use them.
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Nando
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Post by Nando on Dec 3, 2004 22:34:32 GMT -5
I agree with some stuff on previous posts. Farb says it nicely...after a while, warriors become a bit dull. if you want dhit, you cant do anything else...and since warriors are usually just there for high hps/dhit (most damage of all clases, some have brought that up before), then you just attack, and....wait for death. And since you are usually at the end of the group (tank spot) you dont even get to move anywhere. So do we want to make Dhit a skill that firest no matter what, so that warriors can do other stuff? Maybe. Just take away 50% chance of dhitting if you do something else. I personally dont like warriors same reason I dont like rangers or bards...takes twice as long to level them. But at elast bards can sing, dance, fly, get weird gear, make singing swords...Rangers dont need fly pretty much, cast pets, track, find DTs. Warriors can....hit, and wait for death. As for warrior classes, I agree with previous posts as well starting with Ari. Why not split warrior into two classes? Say Knight and Barbarian? or Giant? I could see Conan wielding a corpse...wabbbling about like a ball and chain does. Just have to WANT to wield a corpse, and sure, I can se Conan wielding one ;D Just not Sir Galahad... nor the black knight. So, sure, make a knight class, that actually gets a plus other than damage. Tae some dam away, make barbarian or knight the stronger, all damage class, take away the armor, let them wield a two handed weapon (and no shield if they do), and then knight can actually mount horses, dragons, pegasus, etc. Horse just rides, pegasus flies. In both scenarios, knight doesnt loose moves, but mountie does (after all, takes stamina for a winged horse to bat wings). Cant cast it though...you have to find the mounties. For barbarians, you dont need to let them wield corpses necesarily. Just make a % roll that the corpse looses a limb, and barbarian can wield limb. On both hands (for control) and make it decompossing, but equal a lbolt *grin*. Low AC (like conan had), high +dam. Knight has more ac probs, can ride, use other weapons better (like lances and spears...lance can only be wielded, for example, if mounted...also, maybe other clases can ride, like pal, but only knight knows how to fight mounted). Anyways, Cosmo posted that, coding-wise, anything is possible. Guess that makes it a matter of coding TIME. But hey, htheres my wish list as far as warriors go. And I repeat, I have only played two warriors, one of which I bought already remorted twice, so what do I know...*grin*
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farbekrieg
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Post by farbekrieg on Dec 6, 2004 13:44:13 GMT -5
Currently there are not enough warrior class skills to make one warrior class playable splitting them into 2 differant classes would futile at this point, make the class fun to play before thinking of subdividing.
That would be more a race issue, and currently jedi does not have races. Furthermore creation of race attributes that affect anything other then starting stats would have to be considered, infravision, force door, foraging, ac bonuses etc, racial restrictions to armor, surely a giant couldnt wear a tiny ring or dwarven armor.
Is THAT what they call it? sheesh
I thought Jedi had 3 knight classes (paladin, anti, and jedis?)
Consideration for grouped animal xp would have to be reconsidered, as well as infinate mana moves of mobs.
Gee i wonder which hits harder, a 5-10 lb limb or the 18 weight higher density magically enchanted lbolt. Im not against wielding of corpses, but to make a limb lbolt powerfully is kinda silly, people being all soft and such, say perhaps a dragons paw or something, but regular corpses?
Judging by some of the posts in all class forums, actually playing the class has little to do with peoples perception of them or the changes they need.
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Post by Fensalk on Dec 24, 2004 11:56:29 GMT -5
I've always felt it was a vocal minority that got hung up on the details of what class should be able to wear this or that.
Most people are only interested in having fun, and that's it. If the game background doesn't make 100% sense, its not gonna matter if it fun.
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farbekrieg
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Post by farbekrieg on Dec 29, 2004 12:57:18 GMT -5
Think of it like a movie, you are willing to buy the big lie, however after that you want a plausible deniability, plot holes like equipment restrictions cause the over all creditibility of the game/movie to take a hit or improve.
The goal should be a continous flow of the game where things make sense under the 'mid eval jedi archtype' and hence a good ground set of rules to base it on, if its hackneyed and spliced together several differing ideas its tough to make a compelling case on why anything is done then you have lost your audience.
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farbekrieg
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Post by farbekrieg on Apr 9, 2007 3:47:03 GMT -5
So here we stand some three years later and not a single post?
Once again my opinion on warriors.
Warriors are the basic unit of melee ability they have the highest and bestest ability to absorb, damage, highest hps, highest ac, they have average damage of the melee classes while tanking and higher while assisting.
This of course means i think thieves are broken as well as a warrior post 21 has a possilibyt of 4x attacks every 2x rounds and 8x after 27, a thief would have 5x after 15 with remorts with no real ceiling after that.
So
I have just played 2x remorts of a warrior since returning and find the class is still a tale of wide extremes that it always has been, 1-15 just run as an AC warrior killing the same mobs then 15-20 either find a group or run the same mobs you ran 8-15 again until you reach 21, and guess what again after that you run the same mobs till 27.... at 27 you become a god.
Problems only so many skills are useful, rescue, pound, double hit, wk, with track being there for speciality instances the problem of course is similiar to that of other classes with no mana, it means you burn out 2x as quick and regen techincally half as fast as there is no mana to fall back on, and after 21 becomeing infinitely passive with the occassional disarm being used.
One of the key issues is hps as they relate to heal which is the primary used heal spell out there, which heals approx 200ish hps making 300ish hps optimal for heal spells on a tank. Clerics make excellent tanks as they grow past 3-4 remorts which happens fairly quickly, additionally with magical vestament they get all the benefits the plate class has to offer on ac plus spells.
second jedis despite their slim stack of hps they 1 can achieve around 300 without remorts and have orb stacking with sanct with quite a few self sufficient spells (armor) and if they have any type of ac they just take next to no damage.
Warriors flounder under a very heavy xp burden that is there to offset 2x hit, id say wk but paladins and antis also have this skill and they have no penalty whatsoever.
By the time warriors get 2x hit they are already 2x levels behind their fellow non remort classes.
So beyond simplicity of the class, to just be a banger my major concerns are.
1. Skills between 1-20 make them have some vareity, I know that currently grapple is the god skill but at some point that will be fixed, perhaps sometime that will allow for timing skills that will result in a prone position but no attack the following round. defensive stance, offensive stance
The different stances could allow for different abilities in a defensive stance you wouldnt get 2x hit abilities but you could have either a parry option or counter attack/ripposte, additionally based on str or con you could have a damage ignore, just a few points, or an AC boost to allow warriors to at least enjoy some attempt at being a tank on par with jedis (orb) paladins (self heal/sanct)
Offensive stance would be at some AC penalty no ability to ripposte/parry but gets 2x hit and wk
2. Equipment I know that the vareity has gotten somewhat better, for evil particularly but there is a limited, and the most important thing to me anyway is AC is off. I expect plate in most instances to offer better protection then cloth.
On my cleric i can run level gear + mana set + 2 or 3 items for damage, on my warrior 2 ornates a hover and hp regen and im clogged at 35 items, it seems that other classes get much larger chunks of regen gear that is useful to wear and not require so much switching back and forth some con regen or regen damage would be great (aside from diadem)
3. Just over all review and apply AC bonuses in a structed and ordered manner. Plate Chest High enchant med enchant Low enchant no enchant, Chain high med low none, leather high med low none, cloth high med low none....
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Post by relantel on Apr 20, 2007 22:43:05 GMT -5
I don't play warrior near enough to understand the class - it took me three years to get my first W to the 35-rent item plateau. It is a rough class to have to gain xp solo. (And I don't have the luxury of lots of time to play it long enough to group)
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farbekrieg
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Post by farbekrieg on Apr 30, 2007 11:56:03 GMT -5
Unfortunately there is not a great deal to understand about the warrior class you just stand there and take and deal damage, the great anguish of the class is that it has no mana use and after 21 a huge reliance on passive skills.
The key to soloing sadly is not to get hit. Ideally you would be evil or nuetral so one can use the high ac items of huge tower shield (enchanted), golden BP, crimson visor (and eventually ebon) and greaves which will allow you to at the very least approach -100 ac.
Alot of people try to switch out for the damage of valour gsp/mandalore and tower but the extra damage means you will spend EVEN more time asleep.
Even with the above you are going to spend massive amounts of time asleep because you have no alternative of gaining hps or reducing the amount of damage taken.
Basically warrior is severely lacking leg wear (my good aligned warrior is wearing sphixians), honestly I cant think of what ya have as options, and only 1 of those has the ac of silks/arcanes.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 30, 2007 12:18:06 GMT -5
Even with a ton of cleric in a can, you'll spend most of your time asleep. The added ac from some items can make a minor difference but unless you spend most of your time fighting small fry mobs, the rest have more than enough hitroll to negate your ac. Really boils down to saving a few hp or costing them a few more hp per hit with the end result still being a lot of time spent asleep.
As to legwear, I'd go from moorish at low levels to valour then just remove them when practicing. Enchanted crimson greaves are decent enough too as Farbe pointed out. Its the same problem for most classes unless you walk around in silks/arcanes or have quest legwear.
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farbekrieg
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Post by farbekrieg on Apr 30, 2007 12:41:23 GMT -5
Yeah your best bet for leveling is small fry mobs with low hit roll rangers city guards dockworkers waiters cheers type mobs sadly very similar to thief leveling except you get hit alot more.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 30, 2007 12:48:21 GMT -5
Or actually take a little time, even a few minutes at most to get some canned then go easily plow through chess, sp, aerie, etc. Or do it without canned, its not as hard as some people make it sound. Its nowhere near as boring as wiping out a contingent of cityguards. There are a ton of good spots to run a warrior. Get out and explore instead of sticking to someone else's run or the same run over and over.
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Post by Maranta on Apr 30, 2007 13:19:38 GMT -5
Oh such an inspiration you are! Well if this isn't a fine example of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what it. Instead, why not encourage people to actually leave the hometowns and learn the game? Here I am trying to tell players that a little canned goes a long way while you're telling them to never leave the hometowns because its too rough out there for a passive fighter. Instead of complaining about everything anyone else does, you try actually lifting a finger to help. Throw out a list of good exp places or some easy to acquire canned. I'd be glad to but then you'd just claim I'm thumbing my nose at you.
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Post by Arrakeen on May 1, 2007 9:07:47 GMT -5
Well I may as well put in my 2cents. I have been a mage for 6 remorts but I decided I would go Warrior to try something new. I made sure to load/trade for some good gear before I made the switch since I had absolutly nothing warriorable. I traded off the mage gear that i had aquired for BOs, phearts, and bought stuff like might, spike and the basic gear that a good warrior would wear. So far I am level 29 with 491hp with gear on, and I must say it is a completely different world, but one that I am very much enjoying. I am used to the basic nuke until you come close to dieing strategy, but now everything is much more planned out.
I mainly switched over because I wanted to try eq groups, which is something I haven't really gotten to do over my 6 years of play because well mages aren't a class that is is looked for for those situations. I have already gotten into a couple, but nothing big thus far, just an Anti reset or something like that, but I am looking forward to trying to get a consistent EQ group going maybe every week or couple of days or something.
Another interesting facet is that people who never ever talked to me as a mage now buff me up for no reason. I will just be sitting somewhere, and someone will log onto there cleric and give me sanc and stone without me asking a thing. Perhaps this is just the luck of the warrior, and it is something that I could get used too.
To make a long story short, I have become a Warrior and a Warrior I will stay for many more remorts.
Arrakeen
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