|
Post by pixie on Mar 31, 2004 1:09:33 GMT -5
berserk, shield bash, shield charge, all have cost, all have delay. Could probably look up more, but game is down, so those are just the ones that came to me as i read. anyway the other reasons for complaint on spell/combat in same round are posted all over, so i wont let the mana class dhit at level 1 distract me here. and yes I would die more if clerics had lag, and so would clerics, more often solo clerics than 400 hp tanks when healing at fair, not too may mobs do 200 in 3 rounds, and could always get a hopeful rescue in that case to equate to d&d, atleast in all campaigns i have been in and run. this is my oppinion: Each class should be able to solo 2 levels under you type monsters. And with a fair ammount of skill and luck, win. everyone who solos for too long will die, cant count the number of mage 5-10s that i have seen trying to kill a nest of kobolds solo, and die horribly just because of the numbers thing. same with all classes. groups should have almost no trouble in most cases where solos cant work. same should apply here. You want to kill lone gate guards for 5 weeks to level, fine, you want to solo mobs bigger than abu, you should die, to every mob, every time, no matter the class, the end. the only exception to that would be a poly remorted anyone. 5+ remort anything should be able to solo toe to toe anything in the mud, up to and maybe slightly past their level, and have a chance, maybe not a good one, but a chance.
|
|
|
Post by siolfir on Mar 31, 2004 9:11:13 GMT -5
I agree, disarm is far too unpredictable to be counted on...which is where having a couple of healing potions stashed helps if you're soloing with a warrior. I would miss the skill, though, for those times when I -do- decide that I want to have a chance at killing something that "a warrior just can't kill" like...Imagunakilu? No offense, but with a tiny little golden cross that loads in an easily accessible mob that's fairly easy to kill, you no longer have concerns in this horrible horrible room. The benefit clerics get there over -any- other class is cheap area effects...with pfe a warrior can quite easily clean out that room, also with (or without) pfe a mage can clean it out with one spell.
Perfect stats (@18) + max age = 42 regen, not 45. Add 6 more remorts for regen to hit 72, only 30 of which is unavailable to new characters. And the "slight" regen boost for 25 int and 25 wis isn't quite so slight...try +36 manaregen for 25/25.
And I believe that my prior post indicated that I thought that other classes should be brought up to speed, rather than smacking one class down for doing well.
And even as I was writing, I came up with berserk (an area effect which allows a class as many extra single attacks as there are mobs in the room), shield bash, shieldcharge, and dodge. I was comparing the skills that were being talked about most frequently, ie, disarm and backstab - skills which have a delay but no cost. While you're at it, there's also forage, skin, lay hands, and the ever-popular defend bodyslam to the list of skills that have costs associated with them. But you don't hear people talking about "I tried berserking every mob with my warrior and I couldn't get exp very fast" you hear "My backstabbing thief wasn't as fast as my cleric quaking".
You want to talk about dbl hit by using combat spells to hit? Damn, I guess that makes sohei, antipaladins, evil jedi, and mages broken too, huh? Oh, wait...except for mages, they don't do as well because their spells typically cost more (in percentage of their mana), they regen slower, and their spells have less of an effect. So let's skip them, and go to the "problem" classes...ninja, thief, and warrior, as you mention them. Thief, level 15, circle: even with a 3 round delay, this is effectively double hit. Ninja: stun touch @ 3 round delay, doubles the damage on your next hit, and hurl does -more- damage than your next hit would do and has the potential to stun the mob. Warrior: does -nobody- use bash/pound/pummel until someone says "hey these stop procs!"? Ooh, I think I'll pass on the free 300-700xp every 2 or 3 rounds, so I can complain about how unfair it is that another class can use up all their mana and regen around 4 or 5 times as much to get 1100-3600 for a cause critic!
And I will never agree with this. Ever. You want to have a mud that requires people group in order to kill anything larger than a creepy spider in the zoo (your whole level two levels by yourself bit), then I suggest you go write one and try to find people willing to play it. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the fact that with every single class on here, I can go out and find mobs worth a decent amount of experience that I can kill solo. Admittedly there are some that are easier than others, but every class can do a good job here. If in your mind nobody should be able to take anything larger than Abu without 5+ remorts, whereupon suddenly this huge gift is bestowed upon you where now you can not only take Abu's bigger brother Uthman but also run off and whack Antitheton for fun and profit, then I'd have to state that you're either delusional or else not thinking about what you say. I'm seriously hoping it's the second, because otherwise you're talking about a serious powerup on 5 remorts that a) isn't, and b) shouldn't be there.
Gradual increase over the number of remorts was desired. The whole point behind not lowering the minimum gain, but instead raising the maximum gain, was to allow for that small chance that a 0-remort character to have comparable gains. It was a point that I disagreed with, since I was voting to increase the minimum and lower the range from the minimum to the maximum levels, so that a 25-con warrior would have 0 chance to get 6hp, but would also have the same maximum as an 18-con warrior.
So now that I've shared my opinion, and you've expressed yours, suffice it to say that we'll never agree. Because in your mind, every single class on the mud that can kill Uthman (ie, a mob bigger than Abu) is overpowered and should be chopped down. Note that the classes that currently can do this are: mage, cleric, thief, warrior, sohei, ninja, jedi, paladin, antipaladin, ranger, and bard...every single class on the mud, is therefore overpowered. Upon you expressing that point, your opinion ceased to matter to me. There is nothing I would be willing to do, say, or change in order to gain a concession. And, if the admin were to accept your view of how things are over the way things have been for the past 12 years, I would just find someplace else to go, and something else to do.
|
|
|
Post by siolfir on Mar 31, 2004 11:40:38 GMT -5
Most classes get a majority of their high end equipment at level 15, not just cleric. And as for offensive spells, I'd put cleric ahead of mage, based not on damage but mana efficiency - making them first in that category as well. However, even without using offensive spells, a cleric can still kill more than a warrior based solely on the ability to heal - it's simple numbers.
Assume that you have the weaker 150hp heals, and that you're going to be maxing out when you heal yourself, and that you've got around 160-170hp at the time you're doing this. Get a fair-to-middling ac of around -30 or so. Don't blind the mob. Don't use offensive spells. Now, we figure at -least- 250 mana, and, just for poops and grins, we'll say you lose concentration on 2 of the heals. If you heal at 50hp, that means you get 4 heals that work, that max out your hp, for a gain of 110 each. This gives you the equivalent of 440 extra hp, not counting any mana you may regen during the fight. Take that 160hp and your 440 you get from heals, add them together to get an effective, before-death number of 600 damage that the mob has to do - well above the capacity of most warriors, let alone the average. Throw in sanc to double those numbers to 1200 effective damage, and you've just put yourself well out of range of what a warrior can do without canned.
It's the heals, not the rest of the package. The rest of the package just enhances it. My 7-remort cleric has mostly regen equipment on, and not the best regen I could possibly get, either. 4 of the 7 remorts were for mana regen. Without loading up on +damage, I hit for massacres and obliterates...on average, I set up newbies that hit as hard as I do for other classes. With spells I hit the not-so-spectacular number of -93 for my ac, which I've done much better on my bard and warrior with fewer spells. Yet unless I throw off a lot of offensive spells, I can kill nonstop, since I regen a heal before I need one - sure, for short stints I can gain exp faster by quaking, but I have to sleep a lot more often as well...and I get thorougly sick of having to sleep to regen all the time, otherwise I would've stayed mage when I remorted.
Do I frequently play my warrior anymore? No, not really. And the dropoff on exp for further remorts does become more and more noticeable on a class that doesn't have spell damage as a backup. But a warrior can also get a fairly consistent kill rate. And, with disarm working and a sanc potion, my warrior has taken god statues solo before. And there are many times where I will solo things with a warrior that I tend to leave alone with a solo cleric - typically, things with procs that cause delays. These delays don't matter so much if your primary abilities are lots of hp, and hitting hard. They tend to hurt more when you're being grappled (for a 4 round delay on your part) by a mob that triple hits (and thus hits during the grapple delay, plus the rounds following) and you've had a bad remort and haven't broken 150hp at level 20 yet.
As far as mob debuffing, you've mentioned blind. Yet blind is hardly a cleric-only skill. Bards (slow, enrage, hopeless), rangers (fumble), ninja (defend bodyslam)...and pretty much "everybody else" after that. Clerics are good at buffing people, not really debuffing. The 50-100 mana on getting blind to stick hurts clerics less than, for example, antipaladins...but I wouldn't say that they're better at debuffing based solely on that. Poison is something that doesn't get used much, but is available on other classes as well (including the aforementioned ranger).
Hm...melee damage. Well, if you load up on damage eq, sure. Actually, I think the difference between -all- of the classes is armwear, doomeq, and rings. So, all said, there's what, a 2 or 3 point swing between max damage for every single class except for ranger? So they're not comparable to 4 classes, they're comparable to any class. They have +2dam rings, +3dam lights, +3dam wristwear...so they're missing what, 2dam neckwear and legwear? Yes, I'm counting quest eq. It's out there.
I've already stated that I thought several spells should be more appropriately balanced for how much damage they do. Earthquake is a great example, and was one of the two that I specifically mentioned. But undercosted damage spells aren't why clerics are good at soloing...it's all those hp that they have by virtue of sanc+heal+mana to effectively use them.
|
|
|
Post by Dank on Mar 31, 2004 14:40:07 GMT -5
if the cleric class is so unbalanced, why isn't everyone playing it? i'm all for opening the game to the darwinistic evolution of playability. as i've said before, arbitrary restrictions are bad and generous contributions are good, especially when it comes to game play. in the cleric class, i'm able to solo or group if i choose. the nature of my play time is precarious, that is, i'm usually in-site from work, and due to the nature of that work, i can't commit 100% to my time online. i choose a solo-class because i simply must, and when i'm playing my new mage or my thief, i still mostly solo because i dare not commit to a group that requires spontaneous interaction. ok, that said, neutering a cleric will simply sillify the game for me. i'll still solo. i'll just have to come up with more creative solutions to xp gain. what does that gain the mud? who the heck cares? what is this push for handhold grouping? hey, if i want to follow a 16-year-old around the straight path and listen to his group's witty banter, i'd jump into a time machine and set my clock for post-pubescence and dive right in. nah, i'm too old and too picky about who i hang with... in-site and off-site. that's just me. if the over-think crowd is trying to cull the dinos out, this kind of hoo-hah will do it. you took petrify and you can take earthquake, i don't care... but don't turn my man of steel into another sissy caster. the issues that i have with regards to my RL manhood are worked out at jedi under my ephod. anyway, sure, place eq limits, place spell lags on those spells where it makes some sense to, but then on the other end, offer choices to the player which will offset the limits --- like the high dex backstab workaround that thieves enjoy. restating: reward the longtime multi-remort player with multi-remort eq to offset the proposed standard eq limitations which in turn will keep us coming back to play. that's the key. playability and choice.
|
|
|
Post by pixie on Mar 31, 2004 15:35:21 GMT -5
1st off on soloing abu, used him as a good midling + mob, the average, I still hold that that is where the cut off should be for solos, not suggesting bang! 5 remorts! you can kill em all now! I am suggesting wow! 5 remorts,m you have built up and can kill better now, also i am assuming normal eq, not bolt/auburns/laurel etc or phillo/rcharms/damnations... type uber eq. but normal 'ran it your self as a newbie' eq. so make room for that. there will always be exceptional statted/eqed/skilled players who kill better than they should, i suppose i was too abrupt. Next it has been suggested just bring the rest up to clerics level. now that would be monsterously unbalancing, to use an example posted here, 1200 relative hp on what seems to be a relatively piss poor cleric with bad luck, so a bad luck warrior should have 1200 hp by level 20ish too? you know to bring him up to the cleric level? well maybe just 600, since he does have dhit, but then he doesnt have the cool dam spells which are about the same dam, but cost mana, so ill reduce to 800 hp instead... well ninjas and thieves are also combat !spell casses, so boost them to 800ish hp too to bring up to clerics level. also remove lag on berserk, make useable to innitiate combat, and drop cost to 7ish, 7%~ of moves on warrior... put costs that are almost meaningless on most skills, as most clerics regen faster than they need the mana, as per posted, and remove lag on all skills. making sure that naked w/t/n have same 40 nekkid move regen, +36? was it(25 int/wis regen on mana)? with 25 dex? tripple to quadruple mage mana to 1800-2400 so their spells cost is more in line with clerics cost/dam ratios, and all set.... 25 vs 60 quake vs flame.. raise other classes to same bar, some might go past, but we can raise rest after the leader ad nausium! all classes now more or less in line with clerics, now all that is left to do is re-write the world files to make somewhat dificult again, since every class is now well neigh unstoppabe. OR--- just an idea, TONE DOWN CLERICS
|
|
|
Post by Arizhel on Mar 31, 2004 22:43:04 GMT -5
If every class was as universally playable as clerics are, the class-rev team would be out of a job.
|
|
Tam
Full Member
Posts: 170
|
Post by Tam on Mar 31, 2004 23:24:52 GMT -5
Evidently, Siolfir and a couple others understood my point earlier on. So I'm thankful.
In regard to "bringing classes up to the level of clerics", again, Siolfir hit the nail on the head. "Bringing these classes up" has nothing to do with the god-almighty hit points, mana, or even eq. It has to do with the overall usefulness of the class.
The good news is that we're working on classes. We -want- to give each class a nice selection of skills. We don't want any autistic classes out there that can count the number of toothpicks as they hit the floor but can't even use one to get a piece of chicken from between their teeth. We want classes to have the opportunity to be somewhat versitile. Different people like to play different ways (Farb soloing, Pix grouping). We also want people to have the ability to specialize if they want to. We've all seen combat clerics and we've all seen healer clerics. Variety is a good thing.
I will never agree that any class should be "neutered", as Dank put it. We -want- all the classes to be fun. We have some really entertaining stuff lined up too. At least 3 of us spend at least 4 hours, sometimes as high as 12 hours a week on this stuff. So yippy skippy.
Finally, if there's one thing I've learned in my years playing Jedi, it's that everyone will always have their own opinion that one class excels above others. Sometimes its because the person finds this class easy to play, while other times its just because people detest the point of the class. The important thing is that we all toss in our .02 and if we're disagreed with, so be it. We've said our piece and we're stuck in the minority - life goes on.
So can we please get on with a constructive conversation regarding how we can improve classes as opposed to sitting here flaming each other because we disagree? Speak your mind, if people disagree they disagree. The class rev team will be looking at all ideas regardless of who had the bigger mouth or who had the most posts.
Flaming back and forth really doesn't solve much except giving the admin something else to do in that we'll eventually have to prune the boards.
-Tam
|
|
Antessima
Junior Member
Lord of Ridicule
Posts: 74
|
Post by Antessima on Apr 2, 2004 13:12:08 GMT -5
You guys need to stop thinking so much. Do you have any idea what sort of headache one gets trying to read through 4 1/2 pages of well-thought-out arguments? Try it! The Advil is in the cabinet over the sink in the master bedroom! I'll make my points as quickly as I can, for the convenience of the poor souls who read this 1. Balance: Shouldn't be any. Part of the fun from having different classes is that each one should have a deficiency. What's the point in having classes besides cleric if a cleric is balanced enough to do it all? That is the question that should be answered about each class when the revisions are done. How can we set this class apart from the others, to make it uniquely playable solo as well as a necessary cog in an efficient group? 2. Focus: That said, my idea for clerics is to remove most, if not all, of their damage spells, and to replace them with ever-more-restrictive defensive spells that can be cast against the mob being fought. Limiting attacks through spells that tighten the mobs muscles, making the poison spell worth the effort, and other spells along this line will still allow the cleric to fight solo, but not give him the tornado-like power to clear out zones that he has now. What makes this appealing to group play is that the cleric's ability to weaken the mob combined with the tank's ability to strike the mob will produce an effectiveness similar to the current strength of groups now, where all are deadly offensive weapons. 3. Extra skills: This is something I think should apply to all classes, so I'll make it short here and start a new, more detailed thread. In addition to practicing skills, there ought to be a university or school that classes can go to and, for a fee of, say 1m or so per class, learn additional skills and spells by attending a certain number of class sessions, which cannot occur on the same day, machine-time. Well, I hope that's not too confusing. If it is, my deepest apologies, and take a couple more Advil.
|
|
|
Post by Arizhel on Apr 2, 2004 21:46:15 GMT -5
I don't think it's class balance that's being referred to. I do think each class should be inherently flawed. Otherwise, we ought to just get rid of classes and let everybody be an 'adventurer'!
The balance that at least I personally was referring to was game balance. Each class should have strong points that make you want to play it, but should also have weak points that require you to group with others to shore them up.
|
|
|
Post by Dank on Apr 3, 2004 13:37:26 GMT -5
please don't make me group please don't make me group please don't make me beg please i'm begging you please me i'm please me me
ah shucks, it always ends that way... complaining that every change should be about me, and how easy it should be for me, and how the whole damned world better revolve around me. all about me, baby.
can't help it. i'm spoiled. ten plus years of hard work has gone into making a gorgeous and powerful class that i just don't think i could live without.
go ahead, ignore my pleas. step on my tiny brain. ridicule my poor social skills.
but don't take away my 200 point heals or my blind/poison spell combos that make the trees fight like shrubs or my 1000 dam/round earthquakes.
no take backs. now that you've spoiled me, you've gotta deal with it.
|
|
Soul
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by Soul on Apr 22, 2004 13:14:56 GMT -5
I like the idea of "pay to learn" previously stated. Right now learning skills is just some simple task of walking to your friendly perfect remort guildmaster and using up your prac points (yeah like anyone ever uses up all thier prac points) and your done. Paying to learn skills at least adds some challenge to your ability to learn those skills you need to survive. Another thought on this matter would be the way smaug based muds handle learning new skills. You have to actually use your skills to become good with them. For example lets take a look at one of the more useful spells clerics have:
Heal at present restores hitpoints that are lost (duh) and has a pretty reliable success rate to be cast when practiced to full at the guildmasters, but what if we did this:
What if you had to first goto a guildmaster, pay him oh say 500k to learn how to heal but he only teaches you the basiscs lets say... 25% cast sucess.... then this made you aware of a cool spell you can cast when you see your tank is at poor!! wow! ok but here is the catch... to use heal more effictively... practice makes perfect. So to become lets say for arguments sake... 90% effective at casting it, you have to cast heal over and over thru the course of your remort.
Just an idea... but it could be implemented on a global basis... not just for clerics but I tend to be a little biased in that dept as some of you know heh
(I'm sure Unicorn if he reads this one will go... oh boy there is a coding nightmare if I ever saw one heh)
|
|
|
Post by Arizhel on Apr 22, 2004 19:26:45 GMT -5
I don't believe that any old guildmaster should be able to teach you any old skill, not to mention give you all of your lessons for free. If you ask me, the world does not work like this! Now, I don't think that -every- skill should be a pay to play, nor should you have to hunt down the Great Druid of the forest to learn bless. Guildmasters in towns should be able to teach you the basics, perhaps up through the mid-level skills. Extremely powerful skills should be a quest in and of themselves to learn, searching for a great master to teach you, and then convincing him to do so! Perhaps the Master Enchanter in the High Tower will teach you 'enchant weapon', but he's going to exact a price from you -- mithril of a purity that can only be obtained in the mines of Moria! (once it's finished anyway, cough) Now there's something to chew on. I do like the idea of only being able to practice a skill to a certain level of proficiency, then having to use the skill for yourself in order to master it. This is one element of typical ROM muds that I actually really enjoy.
|
|
holn
New Member
Posts: 1
|
Post by holn on Aug 28, 2004 14:15:09 GMT -5
Playing other muds I have to say that the classes are not meant to be balanced, it all depends on your playing styleas to what your good at. Ive watched warriors 3 levels lower than me defeat things, that when I tried got wasted, but I don go pointing my fingers at them saying they are to strong. I do agree that earthquake is a bit much for the mana cost, it should vary according to the damage, or increase in cost as you level, like 5 mana per level, as it gets stronger. Also, a way to help realign, 'cept killing goblins would be nice, like when your group decides to go to SP and make you evil, you and go pay a heafty tithe to bribe your way to good align again, other than paying off or begging a bard. nothing like your group leaving you evil and unable to wear some of your main duds. although goblins do make short work of my align problem, if there is more than one cleric, they run thin.
|
|
|
Post by Arizhel on Aug 29, 2004 0:21:12 GMT -5
Classes were not meant to be balanced in a sense that every one is just a cookie cutter copy of the other ones, with the skills conveniently renamed.
Classes were not meant to be balanced in the sense that they should all have the same equipment, or even the same stats on different equipment.
Classes -were- meant to be balanced in the sense that each one should have strengths and weaknesses that reflect how that class is played. Sure, you can play a 'damage mage' if you want to, but he's still not going to be nearly as effective in hand to hand combat as even the weakest warrior.
Our goal is to make every single class such that people actually -want- to play it.
|
|
Nando
New Member
Posts: 37
|
Post by Nando on Sept 15, 2004 16:44:40 GMT -5
Okie, a couple of thoughts here, I actually held back until I had run most of the classes in Jedi. I myself, as most of you know, run mostly clerics, and have since stimpy days. Why? Someone stated it partly earlier, saying that its one of the best ways to learn the game, to get to know the mud, etc. If you are a cleric, people want to group with you. Period.
I find the problem with clerics specifically (and have thoughts on other classes, but this topic is clerics) is that lately (I include myself now, sometimes, although most you know I prefer grouping) most clerics prefer soling. And as Arizhels last post, a well-balanced mud, given each classes abiliteies, should encourage grouping. And a well balanced mud depends on well balanced classes.
IMHO, clerics are not THAT overpowered, not more than mages or remort classes. I have found that a well-run Jedi is equally as powerful, except for that spell, earthquake. Sure, warriors have berzerk, and mages have icestorm and meteor swarm...but at huge movement and mana penalties. So I say, increase the penalty to clerics as well. give them a single area spell, but at the cost of a mage spell. For the rest, I think that cleric IS the most balanced class in the game. low hps, low str, not able to get 6xperfect (unlike warrior, pal or apal), can hit anything, have HUG eq restricts... we cant even really tank!
For a time I kept seeing ClericMUD. Mostlyu clerics, and all running solo. Recently, it nas turned more into MageMUD, to the point that I myself (who only had one mage before) have started my own Mage squad.
Want to balance the mud? pay more attention to the less-played classes. Thief, sohei, ninja...those guys, I have played, and left in the midlevs cause they are not balanced. Ninjas are only played, if you ask me, to get into eq groups. When mud crashed, why are there mostly rangers, bards and mages running around? Cause these have become 'attack' classes, due to their pet and defend skills. Clerics, still, will only be pulled to help in killing some mobs, or to run smaller, far away mobs, due to rejuv.
Anyways, jut a thought. clerics, except for some minor tweaks, balanced. bring other classes up to par.
Oh, and I like those alignment penalties as well! want to be good? the DONT QUAKE TODLERS! hehe! Which brings me to paladins and Jedi...shouldnt align questions be the other way around? If you are SO good, wouldnt killing an innocent just take you to the other side? 'release your anger...this is the way towards the dark side'
Welp, two 'centavos'
|
|
Asdi
New Member
Posts: 7
|
Post by Asdi on Dec 15, 2004 18:25:32 GMT -5
5+ pages to read on this, so I am skipping them. I dont know if anyone has mentioned this before but here it is. mages summon pets, rangers call pets, soheis summon pets, cleric gates pets. All of the above but one class only get one pet per call/summon. That is right. The class is clerics. I am not asking to change it to have clerics summon 3 pets per call( god help us if we do), I just want to know why it was coded that way. In your reply, u can not quote what I said.
|
|
|
Post by Arizhel on Dec 18, 2004 6:58:37 GMT -5
Sohei have conjure elemental, which summons one pet per time you cast it.
|
|
|
Post by vortex on Dec 18, 2004 8:15:14 GMT -5
Well, since I had to "h4x" my bosses comp at work just to try to get a hold of someone from the mud since none of you are on aim usually (*cough*Arie), I didn't feel like reading through five pages of the age old debate about cleric.
This issue has come up on every mud I have played with any classes that even remotely resembles a cleric. After I saw Arie's post about D&D clerics I have to agree with her. Especially in D&D it was always easier to *outlast* the enemy than to try to overpower it and then run out of ways to heal with consumables like potions. You could clear some rooms and make a camp and regen some mana and heal and slowly, albeit surely, through the dungeon. As long as you have a healing class this problem will always exist unless you cap their weapon damage/str dam bonuses. Every mud I've played I was able to come by some means of just sitting back and healing to level. I hardly ever died and would often times pass players who were many levels ahead of me.
Weeden is a perfect example. I have always been able to walk in there around level twenty and sit back and soak up the exp. Even with bunches of remorts, the battle exp is killer and it speeds up the process. Generally in any game it is better to be oriented more toward defense than it is to offense - which is why I have always played as a cleric, and most likely will continue to do so. But that's just my two bits.
Anyway, I hope you guys are all doing well and that I'll finally get the net at my house. Take care all. Feel free to drop me some emails.
Joe
|
|
wehr
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by wehr on Nov 10, 2005 15:54:16 GMT -5
Well since I have been playing Cleric since 1992, its been my favorite and usually the only class I play I have a few tid-bits of ideas that might help the mud along.
1) Clerics are healers, it was defintely a nice touch making stats go over 18 so as to give a better chance of great heals, flamestrikes, restores, resurrects and so forth.
2) I aint going to meanie about Petrify, it sucks we lost it, because between Dispel Evil/Good, and flamestrike there arent any great offensive spell to use.
3) Remorts, honestly I like the idea in which after so many remorts ( say 5) you get to learn for hefty price or possibly quest to learn a skill of another class, and then on each subsequent remort have a chance to practice it better until perfect.
4) Potions, clerics since they are healers, could they not get the alchemy spell as another talent in which they can collect certain items and brew potions that have varing effects ( based on wis, int,)? This is defintely a favorite of mine.
Just some thoughts from a FOSSIL, Wehr
|
|
Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
|
Post by Mal on Dec 31, 2008 14:09:36 GMT -5
Clerics are way overpowered. With huge AC, sanc, heal, and an overpowered earthquake spell, means a cleric can tank better then a warrior, and deal a good amount of damage.
The eq for a cleric is way too powerful - there are plenty of classes that need gear, but it always seems more cleric-usable gear is being added to the game. Clerics are not mages. Clerics get too much mana per level period, compare them to a mage, the difference is ridiculous. Someone said 'low hp' I disagree - multi-remort clerics still have a lot - again, all the better to have clerics tank.
The spell that shouldn't have ever been made - sanctuary - should be removed. This spell in D&D terms, if I remember correctly, hides the cleric away in a pocket of space, for him to relax safely until he does some offensive action? Instead, the jedimud version of this spell reduces the damage you take by 50% - that essentially doubles the clerics healing power on a sanct'd person. This means a cleric with sanc has more hp then a warrior, and has super-powered heals. (150 heal is actually giving protecting the character from a total of 300 damage through sanc)
Lets take for instance, a cleric with 250 hp 500 mana. (I've seen much higher on both, but this is pretty good for damage gear). Assuming a weak heal of 100 hp. A sanct'd cleric would have: 500 mana @ 50 mana/heal = 1000 hp healed + 250 hp nat = 1250 hp total, through sanc would be taking 2500 damage before the cleric would die. Now lets take a look at your average warrior, 450 hp and can take 450 damage before the warrior dies. This assumes no regeneration which would play in the clerics favor, and assumes equal AC which also would play in the clerics favor. This means a cleric can soak up nearly 6 times the amount of damage then a warrior. Yes a warrior does more damage through dhit, wk and damage eq - but any normal mob a warrior can kill - a cleric can kill multiple of before needing to stop and regen. A cleric can kill more mobs then a warrior can possibly kill.
Since everyone will get their knickers in a twist over having sanctuary removed - how about make it cast on other only, so a cleric can no longer cast sanc on him/herself. Yes - a group of two clerics could go about quaking like mad - but at least there grouped. Alternatively, give tanking classes natural resistance to damage which can act similar to sanc. This makes it easier to run other classes - but still the need for a cleric healing will always be there.
Or go for middle ground, sanc gives a 25% resistance like orb, and give tanking classes a natural 25% resistance - together they have 50% resistance.
Of course, that brings me to the second issue - earthquake - it is too powerful, and cheap mana cost. The mana cost of this spell should be at least doubled and perhaps the ml raised to that of ice storm on mage.
This would be a very quick fix - and arguably a large portion of the mud agrees that earthquake needs to be fixed (cost/damage/ml/other) - this issue dates back to well past 2004. If you do not want to fix clerics to make them more 'comparable' to other classes - I'd really like to know why. If your afraid you might chase a few power levels off jedimud, have polls over changes to the cleric class and get players to vote on what changes they'd like to see to make it more balanced.
Aaron
|
|
Simba
Full Member
Posts: 129
|
Post by Simba on Dec 31, 2008 18:03:31 GMT -5
How about instead of neutering one class lets upgrade the other classes that need it? The main problem with clerics isn't that they have quake, imho, I think its the exp pentaly for grouping. I think the main meanie about clerics quaking is that they don't group like they used to because its much easier to go solo and run exp that way. Hey if somebody wants to be antisocial on here and just quake let them, remember there are different ways to play the game. And for the record I'm solo !quake with my clerics.
|
|
|
Post by Tarbal on Dec 31, 2008 18:20:31 GMT -5
then instead of 1 overpowered class....we would have 11...the reason that this would never happen is because of game balance ( i cannot believe i just said that) at some point, there has to be a limit to what players are capable of doing...otherwise you will have ninja's soloing andrus...jedi soloing afd....and thieves soloing ogaan...maybe i am being a little extreme....and i agree....several classes do need upgraded (badly)...but i also feel that clerics are a little too powerful and need to be scaled down a tad.....but that is just my opinion...and we all know that opinions are like other undesirable body parts....
|
|
eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
|
Post by eniac on Jan 1, 2009 11:49:16 GMT -5
Lots of good points about clerics here - I really liked the idea of clerics and cleric types receiving xp for healing.
I also agree that earthquake is overpowered because of how cheap it is to cost.... 25 mana! Fireblast for *mages* cost 55 mana. Raising the cost of earthquake is definitely on my short list however I do feel the power and effectiveness of earthquake is spot on.
-E
|
|
|
Post by Tarbal on Jan 1, 2009 13:09:51 GMT -5
so....yeah....i think that an increase in cost for quake would be a good start to balance it out.....and i am sure i will regret even bringing it up since have a multi-remort cleric....however....if xp were awarded for heals (including cures?) it would offset quake xp loss and encourage grouping....maybe make it so that you can gain xp from healing only other players....who knows.....
|
|
Simba
Full Member
Posts: 129
|
Post by Simba on Jan 1, 2009 14:28:50 GMT -5
so what about clerics healing their pets? or just random heals? you can sit there and cast 'cure light' on yourself all day? thoughts to think about
|
|