Quest EQ

[elveron]

I think Cordelia just kinda of made my point from above.

Here is a player that wants to learn the mud and feels they can fit in well, but didn't have the experience.

So along comes Cuddlefish and he takes the time to run his group correctly by what I see on the post above.
He took the time to explain things when needed and helped a valuable player in my opinion to our playerfile gain some experience in high group running.

This is what we need to do to make our playerfile grow. I mean yeah I can join any group, work in the group, and fit in, but I can't lead a group. That is the next part I am working on as I learn the mud so sometime in the future (hopefully not long) I can start to lead my own groups when needed. Granted I will always bow out to a more experienced leader because it just make sense.

The more time you spend helping players learn the mud and exp that are new the stronger our mud becomes.

Here is some prime examples I have seen already.
1)Nandito picked up me last night because I asked at level 7 if I was a true newbie who never played that is HUGE to keep me playing the game.
2)Immort showed up 30 seconds after equip'ing me to check to see if I was a new player to jedi. Yeah that can't happen all the time, but when it does its a big benefit. NH players should try to pay some attention to newbies also. Immorts I would recommend you let it be known if you newbie someone that is truely new. Maybe you can't help them, but some of us online could. I mean if I am solo'ing by myself I am more likely to take time to talk to a newbie and answer questions at least, help with low level eq.

These are the things that we need to grow, I mean I have been back a few weeks and have seen 3 or 4 new players since my return.

[Cordelia]

Personally, it drives me nuts to see piles of squirtguns and jeweled scimitars lying around. This sounds stupid, but I'll explain.

A squirtgun takes any newbie from doing 1-8ish points of damage a round to 20ish. A scimitar takes them even higher. Instead of killing a mob in a few rounds, they drop mobs their level in a round or 2. So what happens is that instead of "leveling" and "learning" from levels 1 to 10, a newbie power levels to 10, never dying.

Tam,

I understand your point re: power-levelling, and it is a bugbear of mine as I believe it is detrimental to medium-long term play for newbies i.e. once they hit level 10 or so, the game changes - although I would disagree with just the Squirtgun; if newbies were being equipped with other items as well, then the problem that you mentioned will arise, as you illustrate in your next quotation:

Next, they go looking for more challenging mobs and end up finally dying in a rough zone. After this they panic and immediately scream for help. If they had taken a few knocks from levels 1-10 and actually learned from them, they could react faster. They'd instead say to themselves "crap, I died. Ok, I need a raft, some waybread and a yellow banana to go get my corpse". Then'd they rush off and successfully get their corpse back.

Agree with your first sentence but not necessarily with the conclusion of your argument. Allow me to explain: like Tam, I have a real problem with power-levelling. Hated it playing EverQuest and hate it playing Jedi. It is detrimental to all concerned i.e. it teaches the genuine newbie zilch what they need to know, and instead extends newbie-ness beyond the basic learning levels.

My own personal belief is that newbies need the support of older players to act as 'mentors' through advice and guidance - occasionally holding their hand and answering their questions. I accept that some players will not want to accept this responsibility and have better things to do with their time. That's fine provided that there are others who will spend some of their time helping out starting players.

Where I disagree with Tam's argument is with his conclusion because I don't believe that after the newbie levels (1-8), genuine new players are fully up to speed. A minor, intra-zone corpse run - yes. A corpse run from Midgaard to the Great Eastern Desert (I'd wager my gold on the 'Purple Sand Worm' claiming a lot of newbie lives - it's a rite of passage and I wouldn't have it any other way) is a different proposition.

Which neatly leads on to zone revision. Once zone revision is underway, then it should be easier for newbies to retrieve their corpses if they stick to zones around the major cities (or just Midgaard). At present, Midgaard is fine if newbies stick to the surrouding areas and don't wander too far into Haon-Dor or into the Levee (multiple, difficult CR's await if one is not careful - hence, the need for a mentor). NT I woudn't recommend due to the Great Eastern Desert, but better for older players; whilst Skara Brae is a newbie's grave-yard: Greza (ouch), Sieged Castle (this gives my level 25 AntiPaladin serious connipitations, never mind to a newbie), etc.

I share a similar mindset to Elveron it appears, in believing that the future of Jedi depends on a handful of players being on hand to provide advice and guidance to newbies - especially in ensuring that these new players stick around. <bzt .. bzt .. PING!>

Suggestion: I'm not keen on the NH flag because it's not a genuine flag. Would it be possible to implement a 'Mentor' flag? Similar to NH but newbies would be assigned/shared out to a number of mentors who would help them settle in Jedi i.e. showing them some of the newbie areas, answering their questions, interpreting some of the help files etc.

I believe in helping players to help themselves and investing that time early on with new players will hopefully prevent high level 'newbies' populating Jedi, still playing whack-a-mole in the Shire.

Regards,
Cordelia

[farbekrieg]

I loved pling friends in Everquest, its all about basic knowledge and understanding, some people no matter how much evidance or time given will NOT be able to grasp some concepts, and others start already knowing some things.

Let me just kick forth my idea of an EQUIPMENT group. Seeing as it might differ with some of things thrown out there already, im not saying whats right or wrong, but its obviously not unique to me.

An equipment group is formed of a group of people who are trying to help EVERYONE in the group get something, meaning if one person of the group gets an item, that player is obligated by that petty little thing called honor to help the others gain something as well, with the load rates of items being what they are, it means spending several hours together in the pursuit of , if not likely of getting.

So due to the commit invovled to your eq group members you often sub divide into clans, because alot of us have been burned by the guy who has won something and dropped out of the group and not willing to run in the equipment group again until they want to win something else.

So alot of us already have a set of friends we like to run equipment with, people who can be trusted to do simple tasks (assist, heal, etc). Trusted people are important because in the event of a wipeout (fumble goes, cleric (s) is struck down by a mean area affect or random entropy) not being allowed to flee after the tank is tossed etc you want people who know how to get to the mob to help the recovery because with the mud uptimes being what it is every time you die might cost you your equipment (who hasnt had a terrible terrible crash death). OR have other characters strong enough to return and help, or you feel confident in loaning of your characters to run with (seeing as the vast majority of people have access to more serviceable characters then they can play at one time).

So adding a 'newbie jedi' to your equipment group (bd, rg, 2x cleric, ninja) carries several drawbacks.

0. You are doing them the favor of showing them the type of classes and the amount of time and stratedgy (however limited that is) and could do so without their help

1. Share of loot, if a newbie is along for the kill of augustus when the slipps or crown load they feel they are entitled to a shot of winning it

2. General dealing less damage then your prefered assisting classes (ninja, warrior, thief)

3. Extra mana required to sanct them etc

4. Screwing up and possible crash means that its possible the risk not worth the reward unless the 'newbie' has demonstrated themselves to be a responsible player willing to donate the time required to help everyone else in the group.

[elveron]

Ok eq groups, Fab makes some good points.

1)Point showing them what it takes to run an eq group, I agree this can be a real pain, but what comes around, goes around. The time you take today could be a major eq runner in the future.

2)Time alloted to eq running. When I use to run the long forcing groups on other muds, I always usually set a time limit. Were going to run for an hour, or 2 hours, or 3 hours, or whatever. That way there committing up front to that run. If they can't stay there still welcome to run exp with me at high level, but there out on equipment unless we regen things quickly (it does happen).

3)I usually set what were after right off the bat, that way everyone knows what is being forced, I even usually like to get an order on what people are looking for. Take me as example with my cleric I will be happy to run equipment for a few hours on a sunday as long as we have 1 item for mana that I could use. If the group is willing to say kill Polaris for U-rings every so often or diamond armor from the dracolich, then I am willing to tag along for other forces as long as they want. At the same time I will pass on all those loads there trying to force because I have 1 char for mana and that is what I want.

4)Getting burned, well there is no good way to avoid this except by the little clans that run around now. I have been burned so many times on different muds its not even funny. One theory I have always used though is, I still find good people to group with. I would rather get burned off and on and increase my number of great equip runners that are trusted, because that means more runs, more eq.

Overall I have always used the set time limit, the set items were after, and an order of who wants what.
Example
Person 1 wants U-Ring
Person 2 wants Laurel Crown
Person 3 wants Solae
Person 4 wants stasis
Person 5 wants fiend talon
Person 6 wants Lbolt.
Then I would set my run for these items and that is the order they get them, forget the dice roll. If only 1 item pops on that list, well that person lucked out this time. All other items though in getting to those mobs in zones would go by a dice roll. I also usually use in this circumstances that the person is out if they get one item until everyone has one, exception is if your main item loads (though normally I make them cough up the other item).

Just my thoughts on eq groups.

[farbekrieg]

The problems with loot splits are convuloted in, that not everyone has the same free time or gumption, and rules are often created on the fly, by a father knows best system, or the signs of the zodiac (Im afraid brutus wins this ring of causes because mercury is waning which matches his astralogical chart) which often leads to hurt feelings, resentment, and bruised egos due to the inequitable nature of equipment running. Lets face rarely have I ever been in a group where the same set of rules apply outside of a guild run group.

As someone who has spent a fair share of his time running equipment Id like to toss out the problems Ive encountered trying to run equipment groups outside of the 'not enough people on'


1. Stupidity covers but not limited to (greed, my bro/sis, i meant to hit enter to say i was afk but it didnt go through, I didnt mean to junk the corpse with the broach in it, not knowing directions, procs of the mob, etc)

2. Link Loss at a critical moment of a fight by a key person (lets say a cleric)

3. Crash (particurally if follows around 1-2 mins after #2) so more specifically crash death

4. Over the Limit (not as big a problem as it once was, but still problematic)

5. Load Rates... they are so bad they will make you cry

6. Cock blockers (these are people who will find out what your running and log it in, or get ahold of a blocking item that prevents your load from occurring and hiding it) See torn leashes, letters to augustus, keys of all kinds etc.

7. Grave Robbers (people who use locate to find mobs being run then camp the resets while your group is elsewhere)

8. AFK

9. Assist Triggers (see above)

10. Lag

11. The risk vs reward of crash running objects is FAR FAR FAR higher then loading objects

You run headlong into a very perplexing problem that has plagued jedi for some years. That is stacks and stacks of equipment held by certain players.

I valued myself to be a 'medium sized equipment hoarder'
nothing that made people wet themselves but nothing to sneeze at either.

So now you take into account there are several such players sitting in a similar position only desiring a small handful of items which seemed to me to be very hard to trade for. These types of players are around often for crashes and that is about the only time they feel like running equipment, except when they get off their high horses and feel like helping the plebs.

So for several players of the game uptime over 2-3 hrs is for

1. Perfecting the perfect character (ie xp grind on those multi remorts)

2. Building Squads

3. Trying a new class

4. Kicking it with friends

5. Running Cash to outfit your myriad of characters because you realize that running gold with your level 30 5x remorted bard/mage = 850,000 - 1,500,000 gold an hour + prizes such as quest peices, auburns, god statue equipment, gcrowns, silks, BOs, Cjs, etc)

Which is far more likely to get you the XX millions you need to buy that item you want as opposed to getting said item to load. Laws of averages state that if say the philo had a 5% chance of loading (2/63 its the only list I have for running the count pre magic changes, although that seems to have been 'lucky' 2-3 people ive talked to said its closer to 1%)

So for the sake it being so very late we assume that reset time on seiged is 1 hr (what 52-53 mins?) we can say that you would average if you are extremely lucky lucky 1 philo every 20 hours. You then have to roll that item or be given it from your group, so another 1 in 4 or 5 chance of getting the thing...

Lets say instead you spent that time running gold instead and with cash and prizes you got on average 1.2m gold per hour, that is 24m gold GUAREENTEED. Not maybe if Im lucky, but in the bank. Contrast this with the worst case scenario of having to load 3-4 philos before you win one and it only gets worse.

Now contrast this to the time immediately after a crash in which the typical custom is whoever gets there first claims the loaded object after he rounds up the people to kill the beast, hence rewarding you for being around for the crash where the risk on the object resetting is none, where as the reward is greater then an equipment group seeing as you got their first therefore the object is your 'claim'.

All this works against the common mudder (who ill call the non power mudder) in equipment groups, and unless something drastic changes (nothing loads on crashes (which if anyone recalls even when i did play I was in favor of with the exception of doom seeing as it has items which cant be reset, and even that I found iffy), drastic increase in stability, pfile wipe, etc) will continue to hamper the new/returning player base.

[Cordelia]

Elveron and Farberkreig,

Enjoyed reading both of your posts, especially because the posts have contrasting views on EQ groups.

All this works against the common mudder (who ill call the non power mudder) in equipment groups, and unless something drastic changes (nothing loads on crashes (which if anyone recalls even when i did play I was in favor of with the exception of doom seeing as it has items which cant be reset, and even that I found iffy), drastic increase in stability, pfile wipe, etc) will continue to hamper the new/returning player base.

I said it before and I'll say it again - like in EverQuest - no-one has a right to equipment. Yes, I do agree with Farbekreig that the average mudder will either not obtain high level equipment, or will have to be very patient. I don't view this as being detrimental to either new or returning players because obtaining high level equipment is not an immediate concern to them - they're involved in a completely different game in become familiar/re-familiar with the game and building up a set of semi-decent to decent equipment.

On the other hand, with a mature player-base new and returning players have a chance to obtain fairly decent equipment because most common but otherwise sem-difficult to obtain items (red wyvern bracelets from Werith -- not too many newbies will be taking him down in a hurry ) are freely available. What this does create with the limited load rates and a fair number of players with high end items is that such items will be rare. Again, I don't see this as a bad thing.

In the majority of cases it would be far, far easier to run gold and buy the items on auction than running equipment. The caveat is that you will have to wait until someone is selling the item and then pay for the convenience. Or, you could try and organise a group to run equipment.

If you want high end equipment then you will have to either be paitent or be extremely dedicated (usually both). What does tend to be omitted from such discussions is that with a mature player-base, new and returning players have much more assistance available to them, in bringing them up to speed.

re: pfile wipe. I've never agreed with a pfile wipe. It's a sign of a serious imbalance in zone creation. The implication being that zones were put in without any balancing, testing, etc - a hallmark of a badly designed MUD.

Regards,
Cordelia

P.s. Re-read Farbekreig's post again and noticed the nuance of his post:

All this works against the common mudder (who ill call the non power mudder) in equipment groups ..<SNIP!>

my annotations in bold

You're right. The common mudder probably won't get x item right off the bat. However, as the common mudder may have limited time the fact that he or she is even in a group capable of running x item is something to champion.

[elveron]

You know Far makes some good points.

Hoarders will always be there and they always have a tendancy to be on for crashes, just the way it works.

As for getting Eq, Cordelia makes some good points, I mean my cleric is getting up there with equipment, now granted I had some help from a one of the top players, but I have bought a ton of equipment off auction for my cleric. Is it a bad thing, yes and no. Yes because I only know about 8 zones in the game, no because I probably wouldn't have re-started here if I couldn't get eq that easy.

Pwipes. Well here is a good topic. In the days when text muds were the thing and you had 100 to 150 players, yeah I loved pwipes. It was something new to do and the races to equipment were spectacular. The only objection I had in those days were that most of the players were college kids who didn't always have access over the summer. Imps never failed to pwipe over the summer and all your hard work as an immortal was wasted and summer players were so far ahead of returning players for school, hurt a lot of muds.
Now a days I think a Pwipe on a text mud would hurt a lot more then it helped.

[Air]

How did this thread about quest eq turn into the eq group thread anyways?

[farbekrieg]

drugs.


Otherwise a comment on the need for more quests, a comment that doom gear does count as quest equipment, and from there it digressed into how no one runs equipment groups anymore.... so umm drugs there too.