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Thief!
Jan 10, 2009 17:17:43 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Jan 10, 2009 17:17:43 GMT -5
LOL. I actually laughed out loud at your under-powered example. Two rounds and then dead.
Yeah, I agree. But, I must say, with the right eq, and some lucky levelling, I've seen some big-ass thieves at T30.
Maybe that's the key, let them grow bigger and stronger a bit earlier and give them some neat <15 lev eq.
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Thief!
Jan 11, 2009 7:01:06 GMT -5
Post by Tarbal on Jan 11, 2009 7:01:06 GMT -5
ya know....maybe another idea....make it so that if a thief backstabs...he lags on all actions EXCEPT flee....after all....a thief really would be a master at hit-and-run...hell...maybe call the skill 'hit-and-run'....a slightly toned down backstab followed by an immediate (1 round?) flee....just another idea
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Thief!
Jan 11, 2009 12:39:50 GMT -5
Post by Maranta on Jan 11, 2009 12:39:50 GMT -5
As someone who has played thief, I have some thoughts on them. Primary problem: They do not have many skills, their usefulness is limited. Secondary problem: As a class they are under powered, I can't think of any other class that cant kill the same level simple mob as they are. If the mob is bigger than the damage a thief can do in a single backstab and maybe a round or two after, their dead. They do not have the hit points and armor to take on much more than mid-level mobs on a normal basis. But on to the skills I would like the thief to have. The skill I miss the most is some kind of area attack skill. I can't count the number of times I wanted to kill a mob that is hidden, or start a fight with a whole room full. I don't mean backstab the whole room, just start a fight with the whole room It is said, merchants get up very early in the morning, but thieves get up the night before. Thieves should get a night vision and maybe detect invisible skill. A thief wouldn't be a very good thief if he couldn't see in the dark. A thief should be able to have a know history skill. A thief that cant pick out the gold from the chaff isn't going to make it as a thief. lastly, to make it so a thief might be able to last more than a couple of rounds with a mob its own size, a thief should use their dex and get a dodge like skill. As someone else who has played thieves a lot, try going all out damage. Its pretty easy to hit 300+ natural hp on a thief with only a few remorts as well so don't miss out on wearing +CON eq whenever you level. Add in canned glows and you can tear most zones to pieces with little effort and less regening. Ignore AC though, its not worth the effort and you're far better off trying to do as much damage as possible, at least in my opinion. It doesn't solve the lack of skills but odds are it'll keep you alive a lot longer and broaden the range of targets you can attack. Personally I can't see a thief with an area attack, especially just for finding out what a hidden mob is. However I could definately see a skill which would allow them to enter a room unnoticed with sneak and not only detect hidden mobs but be able to identify them if the thief went undiscovered. In short, the hunter becoming the hunted. Dodge would be a good addition though, preferably an automatic one based solely on dexterity so it can actually be improved unlike Pal/Apal's unreliable auto-block. Since it'd be without the help of a deity, make it cost 5-10 moves per dodge. A thief with sufficient dexterity and constitution will regenerate those moves quickly enough. Plus thieves would have a reason to wear extra +DEX eq as the current backstab lag reduction is insufficient and doesn't change much outside of rare backstab+summon uses or quicker circling in groups. -Mar
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Asdf
New Member
Posts: 16
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Thief!
Jan 11, 2009 22:22:38 GMT -5
Post by Asdf on Jan 11, 2009 22:22:38 GMT -5
Well Maranta, I don't think you remember playing a non-multi remorted thief, because they are not very powerful and do not get anywhere near 300+ hp. I looked up three 30th level thieves and their hit points are 256, 247, and 223. and your comment about wearing +con when you level. I don't know about you, but that is one of the first things a newbie learns.
When considering a class you have to only consider that classes abilities and skills and not outside influences, so lets leave canned, barding, and clericing out of the discussion. Only considering a multi-remort version is also a bit short sighted
Consider if a thief backstabs a higher level mob and the mob ANNIHILATEs you for 3 rounds before you can flee, assuming your at full HP when you start. Before you can flee you have lost half or more of you total hit points. If you turn around without regenning and backstab the mob again if you don't kill it most likely you will die before it does. If it does die you have to regen before you can go on to the next mob. This scenario doesn't seem like someone who tears through a zone when he is regening most of the time. The backstab and flee tactic is also a very poor method of leveling since you loose a good portion of your experience by fleeing. From my experience if you flee once from a mob you lose all the combat experience, so you end up with only the death experience. If you flee twice you lose most of the death experience also.
So to combat the loss of all that experience and all the waisted time regenning most thieves only go after mid level, good/neutral aligned mobs. Something they can backstab and move on to the next. They end-up in a cyclic routine that gets very boring. This is what I meant by a thief cant routinely kill mobs of its own level. They can kill mobs there level or even higher, but the cost in loss of time and experience doesn't make it worth their while.
An I stand by my assertion that Thieves are not very powerful as they are now, If you consider an average 30th level thief character against the average 30th level character of the other basic classes: Mage, Cleric, Warrior, Paladin, and Anti-Paladin, I am sorry but all those classes can out do a thief killing mobs at the same level that they are.
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Thief!
Jan 11, 2009 22:51:23 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Jan 11, 2009 22:51:23 GMT -5
Which basically supports the thief class' main role as guide a scout.
The "nohassle" changes will enable a high dex T to do what mirrored Bs do now... scout eq mobs.
Additionally, if the steal "loose wearable" is implemented, perhaps you could even steal minor eq without a fight if massively dex'd.
I think that if backstab delay penalties are revisited (say rand(1,3) based on dex) and you add a poison routine and better hp level gains, you might see Ts tanking a bit for lowbie xp runs. I don't think a T was intended to be a W or P, though.
I do remember an ancient Age when Gambler would run a 400HP T with insane dam. Was I dreaming?
If Ts got a shot at the above coolness, and then the class could alternatively remort to a special T only remort class, well hell, there you go. You're suddently cooking with gas.
Maybe that's the ticket. You use some off-class classes to step up to uber remort classes... with Tarbal's idea of the Jedi being the remort remort class... you can only get there after perf remorting a Ranger/Bard/Assassin/Enchanter....
LOL.
I need to relax.
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Thief!
Jan 11, 2009 23:20:01 GMT -5
Post by Maranta on Jan 11, 2009 23:20:01 GMT -5
Well considering I have four thieves, I've clocked a fair amount of time on the class. I wouldn't presume to tell people how to play their characters. Everyone has their own style of play and prefered methods of doing things. The following things are mere commentary and a few suggestions.
Of course not every non-remorted thief will hit 300hp, most won't come close. However most new thieves won't have full damage sets either so having some +hp gear thrown in is fairly common and will make up some of the difference. But when considering classes, its always a good idea to consider what makes each of them strong. For example if certain classes can take a lot of punishment due to sanctuary, it'd be a wise idea to find a way to get sanctuary for yourself. Newbies learn that pretty fast too.
So what if a thief backstabs a higher level mob and gets annihilated? The same thing happens to any class that takes on an opponent too strong for them. If a mob can beat you down that easily, pick a smaller mob or come in with some buffs. Not to mention you should be able to clearly tell if a second backstab will kill the mob. Look at its status and your own. If your first stab and the following 3 rounds of combat put the mob at or below fair and your hp is above 50%, you've got a good chance at finishing the job. Yes then you have to regen, just like everyone else. Even the best thief with insane damage and sanctuary will have to regen, its just a fact of life at JediMUD.
And I've actually found the backstab+flee tactic to grant a fair amount of positive experience. Unless you're fighting something so far above you that it'd take several backstabs to make any kind of dent that is. Even if you lose the combat experience with the first flee, you still get the death experience AND combat experience by coming back in and landing another backstab to finish off the mob.
Unfortunately the boring cycle seems to extend to every class, or perhaps every player would be a more fitting choice of words. Everyone seems to get tired of a particular class, a particular run, or whatever in their own time. To each his own I suppose.
However I absolutely agree thieves aren't as powerful as Mage or Cleric but in the right circumstances they can easily outhit warriors, paladins and even antis. They do need support to do it though, no doubt about it. They'd be a lot more fun if their versatility were to be increased and some added combat abilities created.
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Asdf
New Member
Posts: 16
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Thief!
Jan 11, 2009 23:57:13 GMT -5
Post by Asdf on Jan 11, 2009 23:57:13 GMT -5
well, considering I have 23 thieves, but only 3 of them are currently 30th level and the past perfect one is only 29th, I have considerable experience with thieves also. Thief used to be my primary class until they got nerfed awhile back and where getting 4hp/level average. They have improved alot since then but still are not what they used to be. For other classes when they run into a mob that annihilates they have more options than the thief and their one offensive skill. mages can squad/swarm/pet/spell, clerics can sanct/heal/swarm/spell, Warriors have their superior hp and ac and various attack/defense skills, and anti's and pals have variations of the above classes.
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eniac
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Thief!
Jan 12, 2009 10:38:29 GMT -5
Post by eniac on Jan 12, 2009 10:38:29 GMT -5
I've reworked Hide so that as long as you are hiding you should never be aggro'd (yet). If this becomes over powered I will revisit this skill.
Also in addition to the nature of hide it was previously very hard to determine if you are hiding. I've added what I think is a neat little mechanic to solve that problem. I expect this to come into play the next code release.
~e
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Thief!
Jan 12, 2009 11:16:21 GMT -5
Post by chopper on Jan 12, 2009 11:16:21 GMT -5
Eniac, what's up with the petstore? Back in the day, I was a freak at running solo thieves, but of particular usefulness (and especially now with the low playerbase) was the access to falcons and such from the petstore to solo harder mobs that gave nice exp.
Circle is useless as a solo thief now, where before it was not.
If you can't fix the petstore pets, I might suggest something that allows the thief to "distract" the mob they are tanking against so that they can circle around and stab them in the back!
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Thief!
Jan 12, 2009 19:32:07 GMT -5
Post by Dank on Jan 12, 2009 19:32:07 GMT -5
I have 4,362 thieves, and I think I should be hospitalized.
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guts
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Thief!
Apr 9, 2010 17:39:07 GMT -5
Post by guts on Apr 9, 2010 17:39:07 GMT -5
New thief skill:
Ransack: Gives the ability of a thief to get more loot (coins) from a corpse, say 10%. Of course PC/Pet corpses can't be ransacked. Have the extra gold thats available based upon the level of the mob that created the corpse so that you couldnt just give the mob you are about to kill 1B coins and the get an extra 10%...
Guts
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Thief!
Apr 25, 2010 17:35:52 GMT -5
Post by Austinpowers on Apr 25, 2010 17:35:52 GMT -5
I like it, We are also putting in code for Hidden doors. I believe I will make it so Thief's can have the ability to notice these doors. It will give added complexity or puzzle solving to zones that could use it. Allowing Thief's to be even more useful again.
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Mal
Full Member
Posts: 231
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Thief!
Apr 26, 2010 13:27:18 GMT -5
Post by Mal on Apr 26, 2010 13:27:18 GMT -5
How would hidden doors work? If a player knows the door exists, will he be able to open it if he is not a thief? I don't know about everyone else - but I have an alias that tries to open a door in every direction.. ex (open north;open northeast;open east;...) that I use while I explore zones to make sure I don't miss any hidden details. As a builder, I would create a hidden device that teleports the player / group, when they "climb secret" if I wanted to make people actually read the room desc to find that there is in fact a secret staircase to climb up. This would unfortunately bypass your thief skill. I am glad the thief is being looked into, the class could use some new tricks. Re: Ransack I like this idea. A thief of all people would know where others might hide their valuable goods. This would need a lot of testing to make sure it doesn't lead to a gold creation bug as you pointed out by giving the mob large sums of gold, or having the mob pick up the gold etc. Thieves fight dirty too. An in-combat skill that has a chance of blinding an opponent would be nice. (Throw mud in your eye, etc.) The duration could be short. Thieves know the weak points of a body for a quick kill. Allow them a chance for dealing double damage? Maybe 10% of the time, apply to backstab as well? Give thieves DT awareness like rangers. A huge benefit would be weapon-effects. Thieves, Ninja: Poison Blade Sohei: Flaming Sword Let's say for instance, a Flaming Sword would add 2d4 damage randomly. Thieves and Ninjas would get the benefit of say 1d6 damage randomly plus a random chance to inflict poison on the target. (maybe even some that blind, curse, etc.) The great thing about this would be thieves/ninjas would need to acquire the ingredients and make the poison to apply to their weapons. Based on the poison, the damage could go up/down and effects change. Anyhow..
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Thief!
Apr 26, 2010 15:53:42 GMT -5
Post by Austinpowers on Apr 26, 2010 15:53:42 GMT -5
Mal you should know me best of all. It is not as simple as that The doors cannot be opened with any other class if they are hidden. I do like these thoughts on thiefs. Lets keep it going. So your alias thing will not work on a door thats hidden, because you cannot see it. So
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